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Straight Persian sword!
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Azadeh_55



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 467

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
yes but the sword is aesthetically pleasing. It adds a further element of strength on top of the lions power


No it's not. It is a constant reminder of the ugly time of Qajar. It makes us look like barbarians to the rest of the world. The only other country with a sword on their flag besides us is Saudi Arabia (they actually have two swords on their flag). What message does that send to the world?

Quote:
and even more than that it is an integral part of the flags history.


No it's not. The sword was added to our flag about 100 years ago by Qajar.
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
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Location: England

PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

u cant deny your past just because it makes you uncomfortable to think abou the qajars. we must embrace our history in order to understand and learn from it.
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Azadeh_55



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 467

PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
u cant deny your past just because it makes you uncomfortable to think abou the qajars. we must embrace our history in order to understand and learn from it.


The shir o khorsheed without the sword was our flag for a heck of a lot longer than the shir o khorsheed with the sword. So I say we should embrace our history and remove the sword (which is not historically accurate at all since for numerous centuries our flag didn't have a sword in the first place).
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Persian



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reza wrote:
u cant deny your past just because it makes you uncomfortable to think abou the qajars. we must embrace our history in order to understand and learn from it.



Bet this guy Reza gholi is from Qajar !

that would explain his anti persian mentality, all Qajars were SPY of foreigners, would sell their soul to Britain and France in a blink! and even sell their wives if they had to.

Reza gholi jan! we can face our history. but can you? you're either from Arab or MOghol or Qajar decent. either way you have no love of Iran in your heart. and it shows.
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
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Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the only thing that shows is your lack of intelligence, i have a love of iran and its glory, but that does not mean that we shouldnt discuss its mistakes, your denying your past because your either too afraid or too stupid to increase your knowledge of the human condition and irans place in history.
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Kid Einstein



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tazi zolfoghar, seems more fitting, although it may not be historically be correct.

However, if the straight sword could just be a tad longer, then that symbol would be very pleasing to the eye. The current straight sword looks like a teeny dagger.

The traditional iranian sabre, the shamshir had gotten it's design after saracen's seif/saif which is a curved sabre, designed for mounted soldiers.(Depending on how you'd like to pronounce it)

Personally, I prefer a katana and a wakizachi set on that lion...
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 466
Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

youve got taste kid einstein, but leave the wakizashi in its sheath, the katana alone is a far more powerful image. That aside, the fact that this is the iranian flag and not the japanese would mean its a little out of place
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Kid Einstein



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, I know...

But then again, the tazi zolfoghar would technically be out of place as well Wink

The historically correct persian sword is straight, but much like the katana some models have some kind of a chisel point.

Like I said, the Tazi Zolfoghar was brought up by Arabs, because they needed a blade, effective for mounted units. A curved blade worked better for this than a straight blade.

However, as the persian empire (Well... After it was defeated by the muslim forces) adopted the new swordstyle, the new shamshir was created and improved the arabian Seif, by also coming up with a new sharpening technique which allowed for deadlier swipes when mounted.

Persian steel was also of higher quality because even before the time of Zackaria Razi, they knew how to refine metal by using chemicals. Alchemistry has long been a persian specialty.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last night, people were talking to the radio and said "Avicenna and Omar Khayyam,the two great ARABS "...


Mad
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 466
Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the curved sword is not only useful for mounted battle, but as the blade is curved it is easier to slash with and is hence faster and more powerful to cut with - i know this from kendo. A straight sword is for hacking and stabbing - no technique...

personally i believe that no sword can stand up to a katana and no swordsman can stand up to a samurai. However the persian army's (Achamenid, Parthian,Sassanian) power lay in its capacity for large scale warfare - this is whee he japanese fell down as there werent enough samurai to complement a full sized army under a damyio so peasant conscripts were brought in. the persian army was a proffesional unit that was their key strength.
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Kid Einstein



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reza wrote:
the curved sword is not only useful for mounted battle, but as the blade is curved it is easier to slash with and is hence faster and more powerful to cut with - i know this from kendo. A straight sword is for hacking and stabbing - no technique...

personally i believe that no sword can stand up to a katana and no swordsman can stand up to a samurai. However the persian army's (Achamenid, Parthian,Sassanian) power lay in its capacity for large scale warfare - this is whee he japanese fell down as there werent enough samurai to complement a full sized army under a damyio so peasant conscripts were brought in. the persian army was a proffesional unit that was their key strength.


You've taken kendo lessons?

I've taken a few as well, because I actually bought an authentic samurai set from a specialt in Italy. Full set with wakizachi and a saya for decoration =)

Kendo is a bit special aside from persian fencing. Persian fencing, for infantry is much like the european, defensive stance, wrist manuevres, standard swipes... The japanese is a lot more lively, requiring one to fully utilize the human body, instead of just swinging with an arm...

The Persian strength over the japanese is that they have experience with cavalry. Persia was one of the first empires discovering the strength of elephants and training hamouts for further training of elephants. Persia also had a very succesful time in training normal cavalry and has also come up with a nifty technique for cavarly archers, which made the persian cavalry for it's time unmatched. Medya has gained at least as fine status as Byzantine regarding siege weaponry. Japan also has fine archers, using special bows. I believe that the art is called Kyudo.

You are right about larger scale invasions. The japanese Kayi Samurai and the Naginata lancers are some of the best infantry of the history, however, Persians have their fleet and their potential in cavalry. Hence why the shamshir (The Scimitar) was very succesful, besides the persian halberd which also was an effective weapon on horseback.

One thing that people often confuse is that a normal samurai is just a general title for a standard warrior. The true samurai is a devoted lifeguard for a master. Hence the infantry samurai is referred to as Kayi Samurai which basically is our equivalent for footsoldier.

As in sports, Kendo has cool uniforms =)
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 466
Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah kendo is a good martial art, ive been doing it for a few months now.
i do know a fair amount about the samurai - the true samurai you're talking about is usually described as a retainer in my experience.

Quote:
Persians have their fleet
im gonna have to disagree with that one though - the persian fleet only really consisted of phoenecians and the only persians were a few marines who did not know how to swim - their military record is quite poor. But on land the cavalry of the parthians and sassanians are a force to be reckoned with. Do you still practice kendo?
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Kid Einstein



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The persian fleet mainfly consisted of large naval ships.

In raw power, the persian navy by it's time was very classy. The only true weakness they showed however were against the byzantine in the battles of the Caspian Sea where Rome often made use of "Greek fire", a very effective weaponry against galleons and battle galleys.

One difference between the byzantine and the romans (Although Byzantine technically is a part of Rome) is that they had better skills at naval warfare than the western roman.

Do not judge the persian navy because of a battle like Salamis. Especially in later times when Persia knew how to make use of chemicals in warfare, Persia was a feared country.

I think that compared to romans, phoenicians were quite competent sailors.

I do no longer take kendo classes partly because the classes cost me a lesser fortune =( . Also that I later realized that kendo didn't really have a benefitial value but more felt like just beefing up swordskills. Unfortunately, it's against the law to go around and slash people in pieces =(

Kendo was very fun however, and as a result of the training, I always wake up like 6 AM, make myself some tea while preparing for a ritual with my sword. Very refreshing feel.

However, I'm up with Combat Sambo lessons. It's very, very nifty. Russian martial arts, specially designed for military usage, including throws, holds, locks, chokes and punches. Very efficient for selfdefence, or to break someone's legs =)
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
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Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting points and styles of fighting, i personally see kendo as the way to learn how to master kendo not how to master the sword. I learn far more sword techniques in freestyle sparring with a partner than any kendo lesson!

personally i only prefer eastern martial arts as they were doing it first and they've got real style - ninjitsu and kenjitsu for example.

whereabouts are you from my kendo dojo is cheap but of very high quality.
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Kid Einstein



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The true ninjutsu doesn't exist anymore. It's variants, the mugen tenshin is no longer practiced and the "ninjutsu" you see today is what basically revamped jiujitsu.

Style in it's own honour, but I prefer the technique and maximum damage that the human body can do. Combat Sambo offers me a solution with a selfdefence system, which can quickly turn into an extremely aggressive practice. It requires little effort to really hurt a human =)

Similar systems are the israeli Krav Maga, the russian Systema, Ross system and the American Ranger CQC, all of them brought up for military purposes.
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