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irani



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefania wrote:
irani wrote:
According to IranFocus, the Iranians culture minister have admitted that every day about 50 Iranians secretly convert to Christianity.


Yes, secretely. Why not openly ? what you think ?

Remember that Iranian man risking execution for converting to Evangelic Christianity ?

No wonder if 50 Iranians a day convert SECRETLY .


Why they convert secretly? beacuse Sharia dont allow a muslim to renounce his/her faith. What a silly question.

That doesn't change the fact that Christians are converting Muslims, it's not important, but it's true.


Quote:
It's a fact documented by the Christian missionaries, including the nuns and the priests of the Vatican, there.


Oh? and the Hojatolislam said that Muslim communities in Europe are discriminated Laughing
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefania said:

Quote:
Spenta, try to come to Italy , where the Vatican dictates what the politicians have to do !

And, guess what... even the leftist politicians here approve laws that are dictated by the Vatican !


It is interesting how different Christianity is in the US than in Europe. I believe the difference is that here the religion is owned by the people rather than controled by a heirarchy. Here anyone who feels like it can start up their own church and they do. It has become completely democratized.


Irini said"

Quote:
The European countries have are where they are beacuse of secularism, Once the European countries where just like the M. E. Countries.

i.e.
Sweden had no religious freedom until 1846, In Sweden women were considered half as worthy as men and women over 26 would become of age in 1776, before that women were not recognized at all! Women were only given the right to run bussinisses since 1866 and was allowed to vote for the first time in 1919. So Sweden made it's greatest progress after the removal of christianity as state religion, the same goes for the rest of Europe, So apparently Equality is not a christian value as it did not existed before sweden became secular.


You won't be insulted if I agree with you will you? Although the US is one of the most religious Christian countries in the world, we are very happy to have no government interference in our faith. The idea of a church state is completely against the spirit of Christian principles as the vast majority of American Christians understand them. We believe religion is strictly between a people and their God to make us moral people. If a country is populated by moral people, then a secular government will work the best.
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to belabor the point, but I want to document once again the fact that Christianity is behind many of the freedom movements of the world, not an enemy to freedom. Everyone knows how the Christians helped the solidarity movement in Poland. The movement for freedom in Eastern Europe has continued unabated with Christian support. Here is a post from the Wall Street Journal regarding the Christian influence in the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine which has just occurred.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110006041
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 1829

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry y'all, a theocracy is not anything I fight for or am interested in. No religion or theocracy can run a government or a country democratically, be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim or otherwise. The idea that one religion is superioir to the other in running a country is ludicrous. Secular government is the best approach, and while clearly you guys are fighting for the reign of Christian Fundementalism and Zionism, not only do I not support you or any of your endeavors but I strongly warn everybody else about the dangers. A theocracy is a thecracy, and a Christian one ain't any better! Only a secular democracy is the answer.



No Islamist theocracy in Iran!
No Christian Fundementalist Theocracy in the US!
and
No Zionist Theocracy in Israel!
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spenta said

Quote:
Secular government is the best approach, and while clearly you guys are fighting for the reign of Christian Fundementalism and Zionism, not only do I not support you or any of your endeavors but I strongly warn everybody else about the dangers. A theocracy is a thecracy, and a Christian one ain't any better! Only a secular democracy is the answer.


Actually, I have met no one in the US who is interested in changing our constitutional guarantee of religious freedom. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they wish to have a religious government. I'm puzzled where you came up with that idea since I haven't heard any Christians in the US who has expressed any interest in a theocracy.
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Earlier Speant said

Quote:
I ain't no fan of Islam as everybody on these sites already knows!

However, I will give you one word of advise American visitor: Islam bashing, while promoting Christianity and Judaism as better does not work!

By promoting Christianity and Judaism as better, you are only recruiting more to Islam and especially its fundementallist brand, and pushing even moderate muslims to become more fundemenatlist. Its a question of prejudice, ethnic sensitivities and ethnic pride. You push that button, that Christians are automatically better, you will get a reaction.

This is the problem with the right wing Christian Fundemenatlists in the US, they are making Islam fashionable without even realising it!


Spenta, aren't you afraid that by bashing fundamentalist Christians you will push more moderate Christians into Christian fundamentalism? Since it is clear that only the secularists are preventing the fundamentalist Christian from overthrowing the US constitution and instituting a theocracy, perhaps the secularists should reconsider their approach. Perhaps you will push the USA right into a Christian theocracy. What do you think?
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you

The danger now is the Islamo-Fascism
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm atheist, but I say it with proud that I love Jesus Christ.

I think that we would need him in this mad world.
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 466
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm atheist, but I say it with proud that I love Jesus Christ.


if your an atheist then you love jesus bar joseph, not the risen christ. American visitor is right about christianity moving for freedoms and an end to oppression. But that does not mean a christian theocracy could do a better job than a secular government. You cannot govern a people through the word and means of something which many of them dont believe exists.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even the atheists ( and I am a Proud one ) concede that Jesus was a GREAT man.

I don't believe in the fact that he was the son of God. I belive that he was a normal historical character.

But a very special one.

I love his message of love.
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 466
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i realise that, he was a good man, but if you call him christ then that means you believe he is the messiah Wink
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 1829

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually, I have met no one in the US who is interested in changing our constitutional guarantee of religious freedom.


But when they insist on Christian values as law, such as bans on abortion, homosexuality, stem cell research, the installment of the 10 commandments in federal court houses, teaching that the world is only 6000 years old based on the bible in public schools, they are imposing Christian religious beliefs as law, public education and official beliefs. That is not religious freedom, that is religious imposition by the Christian right, and it is about creating a Christian theocracy.
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But when they insist on Christian values as law, such as bans on abortion, homosexuality, stem cell research, the installment of the 10 commandments in federal court houses, teaching that the world is only 6000 years old based on the bible in public schools, they are imposing Christian religious beliefs as law, public education and official beliefs. That is not religious freedom, that is religious imposition by the Christian right, and it is about creating a Christian theocracy.


Actually Christian values have been the basis of Western Civilzation since the beginning. However, I agree with you on some things which I believe most Christians I know also agree on. What people do in their own bedrooms is their own business so long as both individuals are consenting adults. Stem cell research may someday be a positive thing although at this time, it has more promise than actual utility. Although not all by any means, many conservative Christians think the world is well over 6,000 years old and so far as I know Christians aren't interested in forcing people to accept Usher's chronology. I believe it would be wrong to teach that in public schools. Because of all the bad press and stereotypes, I once decided to test a group of Baptist to see how open minded they were and told them I thought God created the world through evolution. I was stunned when they smiled and one of them told me he agreed.

Now, let's talk about athiests and agnostics imposing their values on other people. Athiesm is an ideology which people in the US are free to accept or reject. That is what freedom of religion is all about. When they try to impose their own ideology on others, that is not freedom of religion or freedom of speech. Christians Jews and other people of faith have the right to practice their faith without being constantly insulted and harassed by secularists. The ten commandments have always been a fundamental basis of Western laws along with English common laws and Roman laws. A display of the ten commandments has always been considered totally appropriate. It is only recently that the secularists have tried to ban the ten commandments. Congress has always had chaplins and opened their sessions with prayer and the Bible has been used an presidential inaugerations. What the president and legislators are allowed to do is denied to children by those who claim they are protecting us from the theocrats.

Until recently, students have had the right to go to school and not have their faith attacked by secularist teachers on the payroll of the government. Just this week a woman I work with told me her son is afraid to say grace over his meal at school because he might get into trouble. This is secularist tyranny which is just as evil as theocracy. Also science is a self correcting system in search of truth, not a vehicle to impose a secularist ideology on the students. Parents have the right to insist the schools teach scientific facts honestly and correctly. This means the teachers should be honest and admit when science has been unable to answer questions.

One of the most dangerous violations of our constitutional right to freedom of speech are the "hate speech" laws now imposed by the secularists. The secularists are dangerously close to regulation of people's thoughts which is farther than even the Russian goulog ever ventured. The secularists are rapidly destroying the freedoms of speech and religion upon which this country was founded.

When secularists can't get their agenda passed by convincing the majority of their fellow citizens to vote as they wish, they try to bypass the legislative process by using activist judges who legislate from the bench. This is a dangerous precident which can only eventually erode the freedoms we all have taken for granted. The United States is a Republic which means judges to have a great responsibility to enforce the consititution accurately and fairly. When unelected judges move beyond the actual wording of the constitution to invent rights which are not found in the constitution and which the founders clearly never envisioned, they are destroying the very fabric of our government with it's separation of powers. If left unchecked, this can only lead to tyranny.

The Christians in this country understand how to make freedom and democracy work. They have done a magnificant job for the past 200 plus years, much better than any other group in history. Rather than trash them, perhaps those who claim they wish to have the same freedoms should listen to what they are saying and try to learn how they have done it.
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irani



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefania wrote:
Even the atheists ( and I am a Proud one ) concede that Jesus was a GREAT man.

I don't believe in the fact that he was the son of God. I belive that he was a normal historical character.

But a very special one.

I love his message of love.


Who died and made you the spokeswoman of the atheists?
speak for yourself! there is no proof that Jesus even existed!
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 466
Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what are you talking about? there is contempory proof from roman archives that a man Jesus of nazereth was crucified. Furthermore there is also multiple attestationof proof of a preacher that was causing trouble amongst the sadducees. the many books of the new testament were not written about a mythological person. the disciples did not die for a scam. Paul would not have been able to preach about a man than did not exist and succed in converting thousands of people. And im an agnostic so im not arguing a bias here. We know that a man named jesus from nazereth existed who was a preacher. What we dont know is whether or not he was the son of god.
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