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What religion are all of you people?
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject: What religion are all of you people? Reply with quote

Sorry, I'm just curious.

A lot of the comments here seem to be anti-Islamic (that I have read), and I, because I am a Muslim (although a somewhat undevout one) don't like them too much. Please don't confuse Islam with Muslims. Islam is a religion. Muslims are the people. Islam doesn't do the bad things, it's because people don't understand things properly and take many messages in the Quran completely literally and without understanding the context (or even the verse correctly).

Also please do not speak badly of the Prophet PBUH. The Mullahs have twisted his messages for their own personal gains, he did not preach any of this nonsense.
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AmirN



Joined: 23 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi anusiya,

Quote:
What religion are all of you people?


I think that this is a difficult question to pose to a general group of people, unless it is directed at a group of people who have all gathered together in a specific place of worship, in which case they probably all share the same religion.

From what I’ve seen, the members here constitute many different religions: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. If you have read any of my posts, I’m sure you have no doubt of my own personal convictions. But I am just one voice among many.

Quote:
A lot of the comments here seem to be anti-Islamic (that I have read)


This is true. But it just reflects the feelings of various people that post here, and not necessarily the feelings of everyone here. As far as religion is concerned, the general attitude here is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and is free and welcome to express that opinion.

Quote:
and I, because I am a Muslim (although a somewhat undevout one) don't like them too much.


Well I’m sorry about that. The purpose of posts here is not to attack anyone individually. However, religion is a fair topic to discuss, and understandably, some people may take offense at that, though no offense is intended at any individual.

Quote:
Please don't confuse Islam with Muslims. Islam is a religion. Muslims are the people


I completely agree with you, and have made the same distinction in the past. The overwhelming majority of Moslems are not bad people.

Quote:
Islam doesn't do the bad things,


I can’t agree with you on that one. Much of what islam teaches us is what most people would call “immoral.”

Quote:
it's because people don't understand things properly and take many messages in the Quran completely literally and without understanding the context (or even the verse correctly).


Though there is some truth to that, in the overwhelming number of instances, it is hard to completely mistake the intended meaning behind much of what is in the Quran.

Could you please comment on the actual intended meaning behind the following, for example:

Quran 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Quote:
Also please do not speak badly of the Prophet PBUH.


Though I understand your request, unfortunately this will be a request that some will not abide by, including myself. You realize that just as you are free to praise him, others are free to criticize him. And there is much to be criticized indeed.

Quote:
The Mullahs have twisted his messages for their own personal gains, he did not preach any of this nonsense.


Not true, although I’m sure the mullahs would twist even bars of steel if it benefited them personally. Unfortunately, they haven’t had the need to do much twisting. Someone already packaged the message up for them exactly how they wanted it and presented it to them on a silver platter about 1400 years ago.
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I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage

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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before I say, could you tell me what definition you think the Quran is trying to mean by "disbelievers?"
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Winston06



Joined: 07 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no religion on me! Razz
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I cba with my question earlier it doesn't matter.

Quote:

Could you please comment on the actual intended meaning behind the following, for example:

Quran 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”



You have read (or at least presented to me) only one sentence in a whole chapter. In fact, even the entire verse (as translated literally) may also answer some doubts:


Quote:
And when the forbidden months have passed, slay the idolators wherever you find them and take them captive, and beleaguer them and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush ...


This specific chapter deals with Allah prophesizing Mohammad pbuh that he will get a victory against the Arabs, who had been torturing Muslims and trying to eradicate them since their beginning. It is not an instruction for modern day to Muslims to wait in dark alleyways with large gun-type objects for Hindus to walk past.

In 9:5, it goes on to say:

Quote:

...But if they repent, and observe prayer and pay the Zakaat, then leave their way free.


This is an instruction to spare people if they stop their evil deeds - i.e. persecution of Muslims (in that time), etc. Note: it says "leave their way free" - suggesting that there is no forced conversions.


Another thing: The Quran is very clear on what to do in war - not harming anyone who wasn't involved in the battle etc. I would find a quote but they are scattered all over the book.

I suggest if you want to know what is meant by a lot of the verses you should find a Quran with running commentary as well as literal translation.
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AmirN



Joined: 23 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In 9:5, it goes on to say:
Quote:

...But if they repent, and observe prayer and pay the Zakaat, then leave their way free.


This is an instruction to spare people if they stop their evil deeds - i.e. persecution of Muslims (in that time), etc. Note: it says "leave their way free" - suggesting that there is no forced conversions.


So, leave their way free, IF they repent, AND observe prayer, AND pay the Zakkat.

Hmmmmm…….

Very nice of Moslems to leave others alone, IF they meet these requirements. How is it that requiring one to OBSERVE PRAYER is not a forced conversion? What if someone doesn’t want to observe prayer?

What if someone doesn’t want to pay Zakkat for your God? Must they die?

Allah sounds a lot like Don Corleone. He makes us an offer we can’t refuse.

Do what he asks (offer prayer, ie pray to him and accept him as your lord or "godfather") or die.

Pay “protection money,” and come under the “protection” of Don Corleone (or Allah), or get roughed up.

But, leave them alone if they give what you demand of them…how merciful.

How else were the early Moslems to propagate their religion, if not at least offering mercy to those who gave up and were willing to join them? If they killed ALL the unbelievers back then, there would be no one left to join them.

The question is, what happens if they don’t wish to offer prayer? What happens if they don’t offer Zakkat? Is their way really left FREE?
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I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage

Naqshe Rostam
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That pretty much depends entirely on who we're talking about. People such as terrorist groups like the Taliban etc would take it literally. I think that you must read beyond it:

Observe the prayer: This probably doesn't refer to Salaat specifically (at least in my opinion). I would interpret it as observing prayer to whoever god you see fit to worship, because ultimately, they are the same person with the same name.

Pay the Zakaat: Well, if you were some ruler of a country, wouldn't you get mighty annoyed if someone was refusing to pay tax? I don't think it refers to Zakaat as charity in Islam, it is probably a metaphor:
If you pay someone tax it like saying that you acknowledge that they rule you - so it is like admitting that you are no longer going to persecute the early Muslims.

And no, if the early Muslims hadn't defeated the Meccans then there would be no Islam. The early Muslims were being tortured and killed by the Arabs at that time - much like against Baha'is or whatever in Iran. If everyone of your religion (if you have one) was being tortured and killed, wouldn't you do something? These people wouldn't listen to words because they were completely blind.

Furthermore, this chapter isn't a chapter about how to behave yourself in everyday life. It is telling the Muslims about the battle against the early Arabs. It should not be used as a guide for modern day Muslims.

The early Arabs used virtually every dirty trick in the book to kill of the Muslims. They pretended to be their friends, but then as soon as a weakness in the muslims became evident they attacked it. However, mercy was given to those people who said sorry and meant it.
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Then it is a sad thing that so many muslims believe it applies to them. I'm new here but I have been lurking around and reading several of the posts here for some time. I love these discussions and I think that this right here will save the whole of Iran. We need free unhindered speach in Iran. I agree with many of you that Islam has been cruel to Iran for so long and we can argue about whether or not muslims misunderstand the context of the koran but I think some of the grievances are quite unrepairable. Too many injustices have been commited in the name of Allah. Truely, if he is a just and merciful God, then how could he allow such corruption and despicable evils to run so rampant in a nation that claims to be his own? As a muslim, surely you see the holes in what you believe. I see none of the gross infractions on human rights in any of the western "Infidel" lands.
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AmirN



Joined: 23 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Observe the prayer: This probably doesn't refer to Salaat specifically (at least in my opinion). I would interpret it as observing prayer to whoever god you see fit to worship, because ultimately, they are the same person with the same name.


This doesn’t make sense. Let me tell you why.

If the Quran does not care to which God prayer is offered, why care at all if prayer is even offered? What if prayer is offered to a chair? What if prayer is offered to a camel? Does Allah find it so important that prayer is offered, no matter to whom or what, that he makes it a requirement for avoiding the fate of being killed? I realize that making sense is not one of Allah’s strong suits, but this is too bizarre, even for him.

Besides, where do you get evidence for this interpretation? There is no mention of “whoever God” in Quran 9:5, or any of the verses surrounding it. Everywhere we look in the Quran, whatever mention there is about God is in relation to Allah. The Quran does not speak of other Gods, or their rights. And when it refers to Jews and Christians, or “people of the book,” it acknowledges them as the worshipers of Allah, and says that Allah is their God as well, even if they don’t call him that, and that supposedly their understanding of him is incomplete.

It is pure neutralizing speculation to just add this phrase in after the fact in order to make the verse appear benign.

Quote:
Pay the Zakaat: Well, if you were some ruler of a country, wouldn't you get mighty annoyed if someone was refusing to pay tax?


Yes, just like how Don Corleone gets pretty annoyed when his “protection money” is a little late coming from the neighborhood businesses.

Yes, paying a tax to avoid being ambushed and killed by moslems sounds very fair to me.

It’s all right to institute a taxation system, in order to provide government services to the people who pay that tax. Taxation itself is not necessarily evil, and usually quite necessary. It is the manner by which taxation is applied that makes all the difference.

Perhaps you have heard of a little event called “The American Revolution.” One of the major catalysts for that event, among a few others, was “taxation without representation.” What does that mean? It means a thug, such as Don Corleone, King George, or Mohammad demanding their share of “protection money” via force of arms in order to leave their chump alone. It means taking what the bully can, without representation or possible objection by the payer of the tax. It means a guy with a gun waiting for someone in a dark alley, ambushing his victim, and asking for a “tax” or “toll” for passing through the alley. It means getting mugged, my friend.

But call it a “tax” if you wish.

Quote:
If everyone of your religion (if you have one) was being tortured and killed, wouldn't you do something?


I do have a religion, and my religion is Iranian. You can find out more about my religion here:

http://www.activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7989

And as a matter of fact, everyone of my religion is indeed being tortured and killed...by people of your religion. It started about 1400 years ago, but has re-intensified over the past 27 years.

And yes, I am doing something about it. One of the things I’m doing is educating those who persecute the followers of my religion, as well as reaching out to those of my faith and letting them know that they are not alone in their fight.
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I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage

Naqshe Rostam
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Why would you pray to a chair? How can a chair help you in life, apart from allowing to to sit on it? But really, worshipping, for example, Zeus, would be the same as worshipping Jupiter. They're the same god, but with a different name.

Allah is the arabic word for God. Allah is not a separate god. Just like the Urdu word is Khodaa or the Latin word is Deus. No difference. I'm pretty sure that in the Bible it says something along the lines of: "Worship me or you will go to hell," and it is probably in other religions.


2. Who is Don Carleone? I'm sorry, i have actually never heard of him before this topic

3. What do think was done with the tax money? Builing observatoriesm Hospitals, Infrastructure is where it went. Not, as you seem to believe, into training soldiers or just for the hell of it.

4. I see you are an aetheist then.
Yes, it is true that under Muslim rule Persia suffered, but not as much as today. But, the Sassanids had been doing persecution of Christians beforehand. Likewise the Byzantines had been persecuting Jews. Both these empires began persecuting Muslim converts in their area. That is what spurred the conquest. Once the Arabs left and the Khwarazm came, persecution became less. Once the Mongols came, it virtually disappeared.

5. Cyrizian, the concept of evil is a very difficult one to understand. You could easily ask the questio to anyone, Pope, a priest, a rabbi, Hazrat Khalifatul Masih V, and they would all give roughly the same answer:
1. Evil is caused by people who listen to the Devil.

Of course, you would probably now ask: "Why doesn't god destroy the devil?"
Well, you need something to compare good to, otherwise it isn't good, it's normal. If no house in the world ever came with cold water taps, or cold water, and if all the seas and water in the world was the same temperature at, let's say, 89 degrees C, we wouldn't register it as hot because hot and cold are relative terms, just like good and evil.
If all the good in the world vanished, and was replaced with something more evil than anything you could think off, you'd probably think the Iranian regime to be good. (ok, maybe that is pushing it slightly)


6. When did I coin the western lands as "infidel?" (if I did i was probably on a coffee high and didn't know). The western lands are generally much better than the eastern lands, so how can they be infidel. In my opinion, there is faaaaaaaar more chance of some western leader going to heaven than an ayatollah, even though the Iranian politicans claim to be working in the name of god. i would class the Iranian leaders as the infidels because they take the name of something which I believe to be good and twist it. However, the west is not without its faults: pornography and prostitution, for example.
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I just read on Wikipedia that some people believe that evil is when people choose to do bad things. I think thats a better arguement than saying that there is a little demon called Satan who persuades us to do things. (look even I misinterpreted the Quran --- thank you wikipedia lol) I think this idea doesnt undermine the idea of an omnipotent god
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don corleone is the main character from the Godfather. He is a mafia boss that demands money from his protected people to enjoy his "services."

Well first of all, leave the christians in the sassanid empire out of it. They are supposed to be persecuted. That is one of the basic requirements of "following Jesus." The byzantines persecuted the Jews because the Jews had been forced into slavery during the diaspora, after Rome destroyed Israel and forcibly removed its populace. (which the Jews are currently fighting for today) Neither one of these empires did a DAMN thing to provoke the muslims. I cant believe you even made that comment. They were both to busy fighting each other to worry about some movement in Arabia. The Muslims were UNDENIABLY spurred by
the booty of raids into these lands. Many of these so called "muslims," didn't in fact care a bit about islam. They went on the raids for riches and glory. Doing it for "God" was only a minor benefit. They were much more like the Vikings in their murderous invasions, killing plundering and raping their way across the middle east.

The concept of evil is not difficult to understand. I hear of muders, hangings, rapings and beatings in Iran on a daily basis. This is evil no matter how you slice it. But your saying that what goes on in Iran is NECESSARY to show me what good is?

I think AmirN doesn't think that trading one muslim leader for another "more moderate" muslim leader will do very much. After all Rafsanjani was "more moderate" but he wasn't much better.

No you didn't coin the word infidel for western lands but it seems your whole religion did. There is something about the west that the Muslims are definately jealous about. Even the more moderate muslims are very hateful of the west. Why? Is is because the very existance of an infidel power is contrary to Islamic faith? If so, how come they still exist after 1400 years and are more powerful than ever? Clearly the islamic faith has held Iran back from many of its progressive movements. I wonder how far Iran could have come if they had beaten back the islamic hordes so many centuries ago...
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, I say, I am an Ahmadi. The mainstream muslims may have coined the west as infidel nations. we didn't (we live in them because what the mainstreams call uninfidel nations are killing us)

How did being Christian need being persecuted?

It is probably (sadly) true that some/most of the generals were provoked by booty. Or maybe by misinterpreting the Qur'an, like modern terrorists have (i think).

Sorry about having made the comment about the sassanids if it offended you. I've read up a little, and I take my word back (although it may have been the case slightly) and it might have been a purely political move.

But they were not like the Vikings - killling, plundering and raping there was none of. The Qur'an states clearly that only the people who took part in the battle should be killed, and I know that this was carrried out devoutly in early islamic conquests. Muslim rule in Persia was benign: "Many Persians submitted to the invaders when the Arabs demanded less taxes than the Sassanids had, and did not force conversion to Islam." (taken from http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/beginnings/)

You seem to complain that Persian culture was lost by the Arab invasion. Well, what was Khayyam, Fardowsi, etc in that case. I haven't found names of prominent pre-islamic persian poets.

Evil is difficult to understand because its existence seems to contradict god - and this is in christian theology as well. If god is omnipotent, and evil exists, he is not benevolent. If god is benevolent, and evil exists, he is not omnipotent. Although now i've adopted the view that evil is when humans, who have free choice, decide to become evil. Humans were given free choice to make them the perfect being.

When I mean more moderate I mean, try asking one of our Ahmadi religious leaders. You'll get a completely different answer.
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Christians, we expect to be persecuted. Jesus himself said, "If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first...No sevant is greater than his master, If they persecute me, they will persecute you also."

Most muslims defined "people who took part in the battle" as whoever they suspected or was convient for them.

Your right, the Persians did offer little resistance, Persians then and now are so nice, they offer you their home and food. Always trying to be good hosts. Its part of the culture. If they knew what was coming I doubt they would have.

Alot of Persian culture was lost. Egypt, Arabia, and Babylon's culture has been effectively erased by Islam. Persia was the only nation that dared fight against the reculturalization. And almost all of the previous poets and writings were obliterated by the new islamic regime. It is a wonder that Ferdowsi and Khayyam survived at all. Many times the islamic leaders of Iran tryied to burn all the books (they were supposedly antislamic) but the stubborn Persians always held on to a few copies. And thats why we have them today.

You seem to have a strange concept of evil. To me, blindness is the absense of sight, in the same way, Evil is the absense of Good. Evil is not something separate from Good. Darkness is the absense of Light. God is omnipotent but He chooses not to destroy the evil. Because to do so would mean destroying us. And He loves us emmensely. So He cant bring himself to kill us, although He has the power to. Evils existance doesn't contradict God.

Maybe the Ahmadi's would be better leaders than the current regime. But I beleive that a secular governament would be better for Iran right now. They have had too much religion forced upon them.
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I am also for secularism. government and religion should never be mixed

O btw i like your explanation of evil. Mind if i adopt it?
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