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Courageous Iranian woman: "allah is not God!"
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait a sec Cyrizian-

This "only jesus-people can go to heaven" thing has one MAJOR loophole.

A super hyper evil criminal person dictator type man, who has done the most evil things ever and has commited genocide and has destroyed planet earth etc etc repents and accepts jesus on his deathbed. Does he go straight to heaven? Meanwhile, the underdog hero of this story who is a model human - but an atheist - goes straight to hell, where he suffers for eternity? Is that really just?

Another thing about this free choice thingy. If hell comes into play, then there is no free choice. "You have free choice to do absolutely anything, but if you do something wrong, you go to hell" or "feel free to disobey me, only if you do, i'll smite you." How is that a free choice?

Although I have to admit I think its cool how:
Quote:
But for those who follow Jesus, its about God trying to reach out to Man. The exact opposite


......*steal steal*.......


Another thing:

Quote:
If your talking about them in the third person you can say he or she or it. But if you and talking directly to them of course you say "you."

Can you please give me the pronoun? Easypersian.com and my grammar book says theres only one pronoun for all 3rd people. I know 2nd people are "to" and "shomaa"

Also:
Quote:
More than likely "Parsi" is its "ungreeked" name

No, Farsi is the Tazi name. Arabic doesnt come with a P (Greek does. The Greek is something like Persi)
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not really a loophole if you think about it. An evil dictator type person could indeed go to heaven if on his deathbed he renounces all he ever did and decided to live what was left of his life in service and repentance. However this kind of thing is very unlikely. Most people who devote themselves to the pursuit of power and money in such a way as this, are too obsessed with material things to care about the things of God.

Now as for this "model human" you mention. If there is such a thing, I would be surprised. (maybe Superman but he's fictional) Every one of us has done evil in our lifetimes. Some more than others to be fair. But ALL of us have sinned enough to spend eternity in hell. Which by the way has nothing to do with God. We send ourselves there by doing these evil things to one another when we should have been there to help our fellow man. We do things out of spite and jealousy and hatred but most of all out of selfishness. You have fooled yourself into thinking that you are good enough to get into heaven. Sure you have never killed a man, but you have stolen and lied and cheated and not cared about someone when you should have. All of these things are tickets to hell. And there is always a chance for redemption.

Its free choice because you have the choice to commit the sin or not to commit the sin. But Satan hides a little fact from your mind. Sinning=Hell. So you dont think about it that way. Satan presents it this way: Is it in YOUR best interest right now? forget about later, you can deal with what comes later, Later. Ah but you cant and Satan knows that.

BTW God is above ALL else just. He will not punish you for more than what you deserve. In fact he desperately tries to keep you from getting what you deserve. He really doesn't want you to go to Hell. In fact it would grieve him terribly if that happened. God is not threatening you with Hell, he is reaching out and begging you not to continue on the path you are on, because he knows where that path ends even if you don't.

I'm glad you like my understanding of christianity vs. other religions. It was one of the major reasons why I became a Christian.

I dont know the exact pronoun. Im still learning farsi myself. I'll be honest, my persian teacher is in Iran for the summer. And she doesn't get back till August 1st. But Im fairly certain that you can say He/she/it in Parsi.<--you may be right about the name too. But the vast majority of Iranians say "Farsi" so that what Ive always called it.
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You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Its not really a loophole if you think about it. An evil dictator type person could indeed go to heaven if on his deathbed he renounces all he ever did and decided to live what was left of his life in service and repentance. However this kind of thing is very unlikely. Most people who devote themselves to the pursuit of power and money in such a way as this, are too obsessed with material things to care about the things of God.

Now as for this "model human" you mention. If there is such a thing, I would be surprised. (maybe Superman but he's fictional) Every one of us has done evil in our lifetimes. Some more than others to be fair. But ALL of us have sinned enough to spend eternity in hell. Which by the way has nothing to do with God. We send ourselves there by doing these evil things to one another when we should have been there to help our fellow man. We do things out of spite and jealousy and hatred but most of all out of selfishness. You have fooled yourself into thinking that you are good enough to get into heaven. Sure you have never killed a man, but you have stolen and lied and cheated and not cared about someone when you should have. All of these things are tickets to hell. And there is always a chance for redemption.


As for the dictator, he repents on his deathbed. He has about 1 minute of life left. Of course he cant spend that doing evil - he physically can't.

As for the second guy, you still didn't answer my question. Would a perfect aetheist (even though a perfect human cannot exist, but this is theoretical) burn for eternity in hell? Do all nonChristians go to hell, because they dont accept Jesus as saviour?

All of us have sinned for eternal hellness? My friend told me that all sin is equal in the eyes of god. That would mean that hitler goes to hell. Obviously. It would also mean that the person who lied once in his entire life (once again, pretty much impossible) about something important to save some jews in his household from hitler would also burn in hell for eternity? Recieveing the same punishment as hitler?

Is that really justice?

If god doesnt want hell etc, why is it even there? In fact, why is satan there? God is meant to be omnipotent, so why cant she simply destroy satan? You yourself said that she doesnt want us to be tempted by him, so why not just destroy him?

Also, why did god create satan, if she knew it would lead to evil? If it was to give us free choice, then there shouldnt be a hell. Its only FREE choice if there are no consequences of the action. I have the free choice to pick up my pencil because whether I do it or not, the consequence is irrelevant. I do not have free choice to go outside and shoot everyone, because I know that the consequence is prison and everyone would die. If everyone didnt die or get hurt when I shot them (and of course, no prison), then I would have free choice to go out and shoot everyone, because the consquence would be unimportant.

Another thing:
In genesis, how does the earth come into being without the sun? It would be simply floating around in space until it came to a star big enough. However, we know that dust was attracted into sun's orbit - became the earth. Also, how does day and night operate without the sun and moon, which are created later? And how do the plants photosynthesise without a sun?

Hey we had an english exam today (6/6/06). The pure fact that we had an english exam today must prove revelations correct! lol

I hope you dont take my questions as me challenging Christianity, I'm just very very confused by it Confused Confused Confused
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another thing:
In genesis, how does the earth come into being without the sun? It would be simply floating around in space until it came to a star big enough. However, we know that dust was attracted into sun's orbit - became the earth. Also, how does day and night operate without the sun and moon, which are created later? And how do the plants photosynthesise without a sun?


WOW! Thats a lot of questions! But I welcome the questions. This is going to take a while so I guess It would be best if I start from the beginning. God created the earth FIRST then He said, "Let there be light" and then later on the fourth day he seperated the greater light from the lesser light - Sun and stars. God created the earth first because it was most important to him. The light was created on the first day so plant life (which was created on the 3rd day) could definately survive. I dont know if this "light" is what we call the sun nowadays, but it became the sun on the next day when God seperated it into "greater" and "lesser" lights.

Quote:
Also, why did god create satan, if she knew it would lead to evil? If it was to give us free choice, then there shouldnt be a hell. Its only FREE choice if there are no consequences of the action. I have the free choice to pick up my pencil because whether I do it or not, the consequence is irrelevant. I do not have free choice to go outside and shoot everyone, because I know that the consequence is prison and everyone would die. If everyone didnt die or get hurt when I shot them (and of course, no prison), then I would have free choice to go out and shoot everyone, because the consquence would be unimportant.


God created Satan because he knew that it would be evil to deny any being (even the evil ones) free choice. Thats just who He is! (And yes, God could easily destroy Satan but he's got a better plan) There is a difference between free choice and no consequences. There will always be consequenses. The scale must be balanced. Third law of Physics: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Your "Hell" is your equal and opposite reaction. As I said before God will not punish you for more than what you deserve. He is always just. ALWAYS!

Ok as for this dictator who has only 1 minute of life left. God probably would not except him. That is both cowardly and selfish - God despises both of these traits. Truely this man is not repentant if he is asking for forgiveness at this time. God would say "What about all those other millions of minutes that I gave you, why not then?" The man would not have an answer.

And the second guy, He is punished only to the degree that he harmed. Although there are many things that we christians do not know. The Book (Bible) is only the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. Many of the more detailed facts are part of our "Treasure" in heaven. God always saves the best for last. And believe me when Judgement Day comes, God is going to put on a show like no other. I can't say much else for the fate of the athiest but above all else God is fair. That much I can personally vouch for.

Some that don't know Jesus can and have gotten into heaven. First all the prophets and righteous leaders from before Jesus' time. Isaiah 61 prophesys that The Messiah will heal the brokenhearted and set the captives free. Later in the New Testament it tells a story of how after his crucifiction, Jesus went to Hell, took the keys to its gates, "broke the devil's back" and took all the righteous with him to heaven. Also children that die before the age of accountability go back to their heavenly father. Because they never grew old enough to make concious choices for good or evil. Children at this age are very much like Adam and Eve: they don't know good or evil. Animals are very much the same way. They don't have a conscience. Hence they cannot send themselves to Hell.

Now as to the subject of Hell. This is a very interesting subject. Many people believe that when you die you either go to heaven or to Hell. This is simply not true.

Originally when people died they went to Sheol (Sho' oul) the place of the dead whether they were good or bad people (although there was a divide between the two kinds of people). Abraham's bosom (or the house of Abraham) AKA Paradise (this is actually an old Persian word "Pardis" which means an enclosed garden) and torment was on the other side. Many scholars believe that the divide between the two places is in fact the bottomless pit or as the greeks called it the "Abyss" - where the evil angels are held in shackels until the last days.

Obviously this didn't sit very well with God. There is no justice in that. So from the very beginning he had a plan to thwart the devil and save his beloved people. We know this plan as Y'shua of Nazareth. Upon his death he gathered up the righteous and went to another realm where he is "preparing a place for us" as he said right before he ascended into heaven. This "place" that he is preparing for us is called in modern english "heaven" because in olden times they would say that Jesus is preparing a "Haven" for us.

Now as to Hell, the people left in Sheol at the time of the White Throne Judgement will then be brought before God the father as well as the Son and holy spirit and then they will each be judged according to their deeds. (Because they don't have Jesus as their advocate, they have to be judged based on their merits) It is possible that some will be given pardon at this time. Then those that are left will be thrown in the "lake of fire." This is what we refer to when we say "hell." The lake of fire is in fact God in his most purest essence. But unlike us, those in the lake of fire will not have the protection of Jesus to save us from God's holiness. They will be burned perhaps forever completely exposed to God's perfect self.

The rest of us will go to this "place" that Jesus perpared for us. Whatever it is, I'm sure its better than the 72 virgins that the muslims supposedly get. (I always laugh at this fact about islam. You can tell it was made up by an uneducated desert barbarian. This would be the type a place that someone like him would call paradise.) Sex is rather pathetic when compared to the AWESOME prize that awaits us. And here's the best part: We dont have a clue what it is! Even if I knew I wouldnt tell you, I couldnt spoil the ending. But then again I'm not a christian because I want that. I'm a christian because I want to live a life of selfless service to all those around me. I want to be remembered when I'm gone.

My grandpa died when I was only 3 years old I barely knew him. But people talk about him to this day. He is still loved and definatly not forgotten. He was not a rich or famous man nor was he powerful. But he was generous and giving and loving and because of that he cannot be forgotten. Saint nicholos was also one of these people. He gave away all he ever had. And 1700 years later we have a holiday for him and we still know his name. But most impressive of all, Jesus gave not only everything he ever owned but he gave his pride and nobility as the king of heaven to come to earth and die a horrible death. He gave away EVERYTHING that a man or a god could ever give. and now he is the most reckognized name and face on the planet. Everyone knows Jesus. And its just as well, He earned it.

Now as to the whole "666" mark of the beast thing. Its probably not "666" like everyone thinks. In greek (what John wrote revelations in) its "XES." which when translated into greek numbers = 666. I dont think its really that big a deal. If the antichrist wants my life, he can have it. In the end he can't harm me at all. And he'll get whats coming to him too.

I'll be honest, Christianity is a VERY deep religion. Some people spend their whole lives researching the bible but no one has ever fully comprehended its depth. It was written by over 40 different authors from all walks of life in three different languages over 1800 years. Even though I dig alot deeper than most christians do, I don't think I've even scratched the surface. To do that, I would have to learn all the original languages and study for years. (which I hope to one day do) But like I said before its only basic instructions. The real meat comes later. But I will try to answer any questions you may have (It also helps me brush up on things I've forgotten so thank you anusiya Very Happy )

This EXTRORDINARILY long post was provided by Cyrizian
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You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.

Thanks for putting the time and effort into that reply.

The question I have today may seem mild in comparison...
How do I stop my parents from getting angry and dissappointed at me now that i've de-islam-ised?

I'm also looking for a new direction. Your description of Christianity seems quite good. Hopefully there's no paperwork.

Or perhaps I'll simply wait and completely complete Level 2, then return back to Ahmadiyat. Zoroastrianism also seems quite appeasing.

Thanks

Anusiya
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah... This is of course the greatest stumbling block of all. Its one thing to learn about different lifestyles and religions, but to turn against one's parents is the hardest thing of all. The people who raised you and love you. How can anyone betray their trust? This is the single greatest hold islam has over its followers. Were it not for this, many people would have followed other paths.

I dont know how it is in the U.K., but here in the U.S. if a family member switches religions its a big deal for maybe a day or two and once thats over with, the parents eventually come around and accept it. But for people in islamic families, betraying your religion is either cause for death or banishment. Islam teaches that apostacy is absolutly forbidden with a punishment for death. Few other religions can say the same.

My best advice to you is to explain to your parents that in whatever religion you choose, you are still who you are and you are still from the same culture and background. Only your faith has changed. The commion misconception is that Islam is part of your culture. It has been infused into your mind that one cannot exist without the other, but that is a lie.

I have seen a few former muslim's parents eventually become members of the same faith as their children. Nothing is impossible.

When you say de-islam-ized, do you mean that you are no longer a muslim (or ahmadi)?

No, there is no paperwork to become a christian. At least, Ive never had to fill out any. Laughing All that is required to become a christian is to believe in your heart that Jesus/Y'shua/Isa (whatever you wish to call him) is the sacrifice for your sin. You don't have to say anything out loud. You don't even have to be baptised (thats only if you wish to proclaim publicly). You can keep your savior a secret if you like as long as you love him.

Although I don't wish to become a Zoroastrian, I have to admit that a certain "goodness" flows from that religion (rather intriguingly similar to that of christianity). Christians have always felt a kinship with Jews and in the same way, I feel that same "kinship" with Zoroastrians. Perhaps it is because of the ancient connection between the Jews and Cyrus (a Zoroastrian), who knows. It is a tragic shame that it has almost disappeared from the face of the earth.

In whatever you decide, anusiya, I am glad that your mind is free enough to choose it on your own. This is a sign of mental muturity. There are many that never reach this level. You yourself probably know a few people like that, right? As socrates once said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."

The one and only Cyrizian
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You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
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AmirN



Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The question I have today may seem mild in comparison...
How do I stop my parents from getting angry and dissappointed at me now that i've de-islam-ised?

I'm also looking for a new direction. Your description of Christianity seems quite good. Hopefully there's no paperwork.

Or perhaps I'll simply wait and completely complete Level 2, then return back to Ahmadiyat. Zoroastrianism also seems quite appeasing.



Anusiya

I neither mean to intrude nor to act as your spiritual advisor. If this feels like an intrusion, please excuse me.

I couldnít help to throw in a word of advice since you appear to be at a critical junction in your life.

My advice to you is this:

1. If you have decided to abandon islam, then good for you.

2. Donít feel like you have to embrace something else immediately just to fill a void. Donít jump from one faith to another one without considerable reflection. If you jump too quickly and later regret your initial decision it will only serve to weaken your confidence in whichever faith you choose after that. Take your time. Really study a faith before embracing it. Then give it some more time. If it first passes your brain test, and then passes your heart test and it still feels right then itís for you.

3. Approach the matter first with your brain and after that with your heart. Both tests must pass.

4. Study Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Christianity. I subscribe to neither, but if I had to choose a religion I would pick from those three in that order.

5. Do not base your faith upon your parentsí acceptance. Your faith should only be the business of you and no one else. Nonetheless, if you feel that your parents will react in a very unfavorable way, then donít share your decision openly with them. At least, not until you are legally an adult. Even then, your faith may still be only your business.

6. I commend you for having the courage to examine your life and beliefs. Most people donít have that courage, and only believe what they are told simply because they are born into a family that also believed what it was told. No matter what you choose in the end, it is admirable that you undertook this journey. Even if you return to Islam, at least you'll know that it was because you freely chose it instead of it having been imposed on you.


Best of luck to you. And rememberÖtake your time and donít rush into anything until you have thoroughly examined all of your options carefully.
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I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage

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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your advice so much Cyrizian and Amir.

Firstly I plan to re-evalutate Islam. That will involve interpreting the Quran (in my own personal manner probably), and then asking loads of questions to my father and other religiously wise people such as the Khalifa. After that I'll probably compare my findings with other religions (and I'll post them in the Philosophy and Religion board as well, seeing as during this investigation I may well answer a lot of questions you may be thinking of).

Unfortunately, I know neither any Zoroastrians nor any Buddhists. My best source for Zoroastrianism is probably avesta.org (and even if I decide that its not for me, those ancient persian grammars definitely are!), however, for Buddhism, I'll probably have to do a google search or something.

Once again, thanks so much for your advice, both of you.

Anusiya
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blank



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 1672

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anusiya wrote:
Thanks for your advice so much Cyrizian and Amir.

Firstly I plan to re-evalutate Islam. That will involve interpreting the Quran (in my own personal manner probably), and then asking loads of questions to my father and other religiously wise people such as the Khalifa. After that I'll probably compare my findings with other religions (and I'll post them in the Philosophy and Religion board as well, seeing as during this investigation I may well answer a lot of questions you may be thinking of).

Unfortunately, I know neither any Zoroastrians nor any Buddhists. My best source for Zoroastrianism is probably avesta.org (and even if I decide that its not for me, those ancient persian grammars definitely are!), however, for Buddhism, I'll probably have to do a google search or something.

Once again, thanks so much for your advice, both of you.

Anusiya



I would not spend too much time on studying islam, you can look at the countries that practice it & learn from it.
I will tell you very briefly what each means to me!
Islam- kill anyone that does not accept islam or he/she has to pay a hefty tax. Cutting limbs, gouging eyes, flogging, beheading, pedophila, treating women as less than second class citizen.
Zarostarian- Good thoughts, Good deeds, Good words.
Christianity- Love everyone, if they slapped you on your left cheek, offer your right one as well.
Laughing Laughing


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blank



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry dupe posts....

Last edited by blank on Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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blank



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry dupe posts
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