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Top 10 Reasons Why Islam Is Nuts
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:35 pm    Post subject: Top 10 Reasons Why Islam Is Nuts Reply with quote

I found this on another site. I thought you all might find it homourous....and tragic.

10) - Women beaten with sticks by hair police for showing an ankle or hairline.

9) - Female circumcision performed by child's own grandmother and mother.

Cool - Religious celebrations where celebrants beat themselves with chains and hooks (aren't we having fun??)

7) - Symbols of other faiths such as Star of David or Cross punishable by imprisonment or death when displayed in an Islamic country.

6) - The Koran states that it's OK to rape women and kill infidels.

5) - Strapping your children with explosives is considered an act of devotion because they are killing the infidels.

4) - Rape can not be proven unless there are four Muslim men who are witnesses to the act - p.s. the rape "victim" is fair game for murder for dishonoring her family.

3) - Worshipers flock to Mecca (forbidden to any non-Muslim under pain of death) to pray before a piece of rock in the Kaaba (most agree the rock is a meteorite).

2) - Main tenet of jihad seeks to eradicate all other belief systems and create an all-Muslim world.

1) - Homicide bombers and terrorists promised an assured place in heaven attended by 72 virgins and "beautiful boys" (something they usually do not discuss), where they can feast on honey cake, have sex and drink (the fruit of the vine is not forbidden here) for committing the act of murder in their physical life. P.S. In other words Allah and the Prophet invite you to an orgy in heaven if you kill enough infidels! What a guy! Just makes you want to run out and put a towel on your head, don't it?
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anusiya



Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject: Top 10 reasons why Christianity is nuts Reply with quote

1) The Christian God is a racist, unjust, and unmerciful. Christianity states that only Christians can get into heaven. Everyone else must perish in hell. The Christian God is punishing us for what Adam and Eve did. Yet, Christianity is meant to be the most "tolerant" and "loving." Both of these things don't exist in Islam.

2) Creationism is ****. But of course, IYO the minute god enters the equation, anything is possible. Both evolution and the big bang are backed up in the Quran. Civilisations have been found that are OLDER THAN THE BIBLICAL EARTH. Also, dinosaurs on the ark???????

God also makes plants before the sun, and makes DAY AND NIGHT BEFORE THE SUN. Some people live to 970, which is impossible due to the genetic defect that causes ageing, unless of course said human's body cell had one mitosis every few days (or something like that), ...

3) Christianity places the blame for humanity's doom on women.

4) A rape victim either gets stoned to death, or is forced to marry the rapist. (!!!!!!!)

5) The Christian god commanded genocide and rape of all the medianites, which was done by Moses. The Christian God also wiped out all humans on earth (but spared dinosaurs) during the flood. Accordingly, the Crusaders, who killed civilians in the middle east - muslim, jewish, christian, everyone, took Moses's example and will all go to heaven.

6) Christian history has been far more violent and full of forced conversions - eg: Teutonic Knights in Prussia; Jews and Muslims (and non-Catholics) in post-Islamic Spain (in where during the Muslim times, Spain became virtually a living paradise).

In the past month, my Christian "friend" has officially damned me 6 times, declared my other friend as a heretic 3 times (for not believing in dinosaurs on the ark), and has threatened to beat me up if I didn't convert once, and all the time, he was claiming to be my friend and said he was looking out for me.
Like you stereotype muslims, should I use him as an example to judge you by, Cyrizian?

7) You critisice Mohammad for waging wars (all in self-defense and for unity of arabia, none accompanied with slaugher of civilians). Jesus never touched a sword. But, isn't it said that when Jesus comes back, he comes with a sword? I doubt it's for decorational purposes.

Cool The apocalypse should have already happened

9) People who work on the Sabbath should die. People who don't listen to priests should die. Witches should die. People of other faiths and heretics should die. Homosexuals should die. Fortunetellers should die. Whoever hits their dad should die. Whoever curses their parents should die. Adulterurs should die. People who do fornication should die. Nonbelievers should die. False prophets should die. Commit genocide if in a city, only one person worships a different god. Women who are not virgins on their wedding night should die. Blasphemers should die. Infidels should die. Anyone who approaches Tabernacle should die. Brats should die. The curious people should die. Sons of sinners should die. You must kill.

What a peaceful religion


10) Christianity is a force which divides people and turns them against each other, as Jesus himself said, unlike Islam, which is a unifying force.

11) various others: evilbible.com


Cyrizian, most of what you've posted is lies. In fact, I only recognised the (10) as part of the law in Iran (but not in other Muslim countries), and I recognised (Cool as a shia ritual. Your exposure to Islam is so small it is as if you filter out information which doesnt conform to your viewpoint. Replying to it would be pointless, seeing as you are too closed minded to actually look into anything which may be considered against your beliefs.
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW!!! No need to take it so personally dude! Calm down! this is not an attack against you! I dont know what your friends did to you, but I don't hate you. And I dont hold anything against you. Relax!

Im sorry your friends did such a dispicable thing to you. You dont deserve to be condemned by any man.

I didnt mean for my previous post to be hateful. That is the last thing I meant to do.

I am sorry but I do stereotype Islam. But my fight is against Islam not muslims. I care about the man, not the religion.

If I have come across as hateful towards you, I apologize. Whether you know it or not I love your soul and so does God.

Say what you will about some other so-called "christians" but I do not come against you with a sword. I only want to talk. That list was posted on a jewish website and I thought it was an interesting summary from their point of view. It was not meant to be hurtful towards you.

Realize that you are not making a good case for your religion by exploding like that. What do you think the other posters on this board are thinking?
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Cyrizian, most of what you've posted is lies. In fact, I only recognised the (10) as part of the law in Iran (but not in other Muslim countries), and I recognised ( as a shia ritual. Your exposure to Islam is so small it is as if you filter out information which doesnt conform to your viewpoint. Replying to it would be pointless, seeing as you are too closed minded to actually look into anything which may be considered against your beliefs.


After some consideration I have decided to elaborate on my exposure to islam. Anusiya, you say I have a limited understanding of Islam and that I am too close minded. I am sorry you feel this way. But let me assure you I have a bit more exposure than I would like to admit. My father grew up in qasvin, a little town west of Tehran. Despite the fact that he was poor and disabled (blind) He lived relatively well. Mind you, these were the days of the shah. When education was valued, western culture was seen as enlightening, and almost everyone was optimistic. They believed the best was yet to come. These were the good old days. But even then my father noticed there was something stange about islam. Whenever some good thing came, such as women's rights, the clerics were outraged! It seemed at every turn Islam was holding back Iranian society. It was somehow stopping us from becoming better than we were. My father could see it. I can see it. The shah saw it too. Many people in Iran are starting to see it. Soon I believe the whole world will see it. There is something fundamentally wrong with islam. It seeks to keep its adherents following barbaric codes of cruelty.

My father knew (he was a Persian literature major in college) that islam was a foreign religion that was being forced on the people. And he could see that the shah was attempting to seperate Iran from it. And the more the shah did so, the better things became economically. When the revolution began, my father knew that if Islam won, his country that he loved so dearly, would fall back into barbarism that has no place in the modern world ...He was right. You can claim that the shia clerics are not true muslims all you want. But the fact remains that there is no greater stronghold on earth for fundamental islam than Iran. If Islam is the true faith, then Allah would have succeeded and Iran would be the most dominant country on the face of the earth. They would have, by Allah's power, the most powerful military in the world. They would conquer everything they see. And America and Israel would be destroyed by allah's wrath. We wouldn't be having this conversation.

But that is not what happened. Indeed the very opposite is happening. ALLAH DOES NOT EXIST. And if nothing else, I have at least that to be thankful for. As a child, my father told me what Islam is like: A festering cancer that sucks the joy out of life. I didnt believe him. I thought that Islam could be peaceful. Even christianity and Judaism went through violent times where currupt religious leaders used religion as a tool for war. But I was so very wrong. Over the years I have met many exiles from Iran. I have stayed at their houses, gone to school with them, lived among them. And I have found one thing in common: The more "moderate" the muslim, the happier the life that they have. If they are atheists or have converted to another religion, they are even more better off. But the more "fundamental" the muslim, the harsher the lifestyle. They are usually angrier, more impatient, they tend to think of themselves as better than everyone else. Not to be rude Anusiya, but you have showed many qualities similar to the later catagory. You are impatient, you have many outbursts, you think you are always right. This kind of attitude is what is killing Iran right now. Can't you see what it is doing to you?

I plead with you to give up this ideology before it destroys you. I dont care if you become an athiest or convert to another religion, but give up islam. My father, my friends, and I have seen where this road leads. Trust me, you dont want to go there. Because you live in the U.K., the societal pressure does not exist like it does in islamic countries. You have an opportunity to escape that few are afforded. You may not think much of me, Anusiya. But I do care about muslims. I want them to have an abundant life. Full of happiness and joy. True love instead of polygamy, equality instead of headscarfs, kindness instead of terrorism, life instead of death. And I will not stop until Islam is gone forever Very Happy Then and only then will Iran be truely free.

I love you all
The one and only Cyrizian
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What gives you the authority to tell me what to believe, and to say why I am who I am? Islam is the reason I feel guilty after lashing out. Lashing out is part of me. I believe those annoying little adolescent hormones are to blame.

I'm sorry for your past n stuff. But the way it seems, you are judging all of Islam from the Shia clerics in Iran. That is not the only version, you know! It's like if I judged you by Jehovas Witnesses or Catholicism (assuming you are neither one of them) or using the appalling conditions in medieval Europe (note: compare med. Europe to med. ME) to degrade Christianity. Have you actually looked at the sect I am part of? In case you forgot / filtered it out, its called Ahmadiyya. Amount of cruelty = 0. Amount of bombings done by us = 0. Amount of terrorism done by us = 0. Amount of hating west without reason and restricting womens rights done by us = ZERO.

Your corellation between fanaticalism and quality of living breaks down completely with us. But then, thats probably because a fanatical ahmadi is probably in itself impossible. I have noticed something though - my father is incredibly successful, he's a successful doctor, rich, healthy, etc, etc; and he is incredibly devout - he does all 5 namazs and reads quran every day. I, on the other hand, don't do any of that stuff - in fact, I am so incredibly lazy that I even lie about having done it so that I can get off doing it. I am messed up - most of my friendships are going down the drain, I'm getting loads of spyware n stuff on this computer despite the firewall, and every time I try to do something important, it skrooes up in my face. I think the correllations just become negative.

True faith ... IM0 there is no such thing as a true faith (unless, of course, the stories and stuff are proved scientifically - in which case, Islam is number one candidate - speed o light, big bang, relativity, and evolution, for example). Any faith that teaches good stuff is perfectly legitamate in god's eyes, because, unlike the christian god, mine doesnt discriminate against non-christians/muslims/people. No god would call fanaticism a true religion.
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What gives you the authority to tell me what to believe, and to say why I am who I am?


Because I have seen where islam (in general) takes humanity. And it would be wrong of me to simply let you walk that path without some sort of knowledge to the contrary.

Quote:
Islam is the reason I feel guilty after lashing out.


No, that would be your conscience. You know its wrong to lash out at people even if you were an athiest.

Quote:

I'm sorry for your past n stuff. But the way it seems, you are judging all of Islam from the Shia clerics in Iran. That is not the only version, you know!


My point is that Islam has rarely if ever been as fundamental as it is in Iran right now. Shia or otherwise. Jesus once said, "You will know them by their fruits." And I have tasted the fruits of many different sects of Islam. Some are less foul than others, but all are rotten. But because you have been eating them all your life, you hardly notice. I just want you to be eating better. Very Happy

Quote:
True faith ... IM0 there is no such thing as a true faith (unless, of course, the stories and stuff are proved scientifically - in which case, Islam is number one candidate - speed o light, big bang, relativity, and evolution, for example). Any faith that teaches good stuff is perfectly legitamate in god's eyes, because, unlike the christian god, mine doesnt discriminate against non-christians/muslims/people. No god would call fanaticism a true religion.


No, faith doesn't matter. In God's eyes, the only thing that matters is love. Paul said, "Even if I speak with the languages of men and of angels, but don't have love, I have become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing. If I give out all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but don't have love, it profits me nothing." Love is all that matters. If nothing else, remember that. It will do you good. Everything I have said on this message board to you is because of love. God and I both love you too much to let you walk this path being ignorant.

Hopefully that is enough.

Cyrizian
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To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Note: I may return to add some more stuff l8r Reply with quote

Quote:
My point is that Islam has rarely if ever been as fundamental as it is in Iran right now. Shia or otherwise. Jesus once said, "You will know them by their fruits." And I have tasted the fruits of many different sects of Islam. Some are less foul than others, but all are rotten. But because you have been eating them all your life, you hardly notice. I just want you to be eating better.


Uhh ... hello? Ahmadiyat's not an Iranian sect, fyi. It's Indian. Chances are if it spread to Iran we'd be killed for apostasy (kinda like in Pakistan) like they're doing to Bahais.

What's more its not rotten. Ok, maybe a few "fruit" are rotten (the fanatic ones). But then again, several Christian "fruit" are rotten as well. I wont bother telling you that someone posted a video of some guy trying to convert non-creationists to creationism and that he sounded like such a big idiot, saying things like "back in the days of noah, people lived to 970 years old, and thats why we have dinosaurs, because lizards and crocodiles could grow for 970 years" and that all he did was make a big fool of himself by justifying creationism by saying "god can do anything" which is of couse, in his eyes, absolute proof itself, and also, he missed out the entire gravity, and dark matter, and so much more; because you probably are yourself a creationist judging by your one post which actually sounded threatening to the theory of evolution. My god, that is a long sentence! In fact, there are probably rotten fruit in every religion, nationality, species etc.
Maybe its simply a "type of fruit" your taste buds don't like, but mine do.

Having said that, I agree with you that the Islam in Iran is one of the most extreme in the world, IMO it ranks second to Saudi Arabia (I may be wrong here) and some other ppl. If when you keep saying things like "My fight is against Islam" you mean that kind, then expect 100% support from me! (well ok, 60%, but that's only cos I'm a lazy dude Very Happy :p) And you'll find that the Ahmadiyyat will support it as well.

Well, thats only if its wiping out by persuasion. No genocides. :p


Quote:
Because I have seen where islam (in general) takes humanity. And it would be wrong of me to simply let you walk that path without some sort of knowledge to the contrary.


Ah. You've seen where fanatical "Islam" takes people. No-one can actually look into Ahmadiyyat and call it "rotten," if you look at what we've been doing n stuff.

As for where not-so-fanatic Islam takes people:
Quote:
taken from http://www.alislam.org/introduction/index.html written about Ahmadiyyat:
With this conviction, the Ahmadiyya Community, within a century, has reached the corners of the Earth. Wherever the Community is established, it endeavors to exert a constructive influence of Islam through social projects, educational institutes, health services, Islamic publications and construction of mosques, despite being bitterly persecuted in some countries. Ahmadi Muslims have earned the distinction of being a law-abiding, peaceful, persevering and benevolent community.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/history.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
http://www.islamfortoday.com/athar04.htm
http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Medicine/Medicine_and_Health.html
Quote:
History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.

Quote:
The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.



Compare:
1. No fanatics:

unified .. scientific ... mostly peaceful ... womens rights 1000 years ahead of its time ...

2. Once fanaticism had appeared:

btw, thats the mongols, who destroyed ... a lot. (YAY MONGOLS)
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You sure seem to care a lot about creationists vs. evolutionists. Some christians do believe that "god made it all happen." And I get what you are saying, that is just such a cheap argument. It takes all the fun out of understanding it all. I understand. Yes I am a creationist.

Personally I think Dr. Carl Baugh at the creation evidence museum has a good idea about how it all happened. http://www.creationevidence.org/cemframes.html
His findings are truely intriguing. There is so much overwhelming evidence to the fact that the earth is very young (less than 10,000 years old). There is simply no evidence that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. (I can't accept the carbon dating method, its too eratic to be reliable). I went to his museum once and let me tell you, once you see 17 inch piranhas swiming in a tank, you realize just how right-on-the-money he is.

If you mean hateful christians by "rotten fruit" then you are right. But they are so few and far between. The whole islamic tree is really fungus. What i mean by "fruit" is gifts to mankind. America and Israel have given so much to the world (how they use it is a completely different matter). The Arab world on the other hand represents all that is selfish and cruel IMHO. You can say historically that the arabs gave us medicine and mathimatics but the reality is that they stole all of that from the greeks and romans before them. And the moment that information fell into european hands...the renaissance happened...and the Arabs got left in the dust, where they remain to this day. For the last 100 years they have tried to pull themselves out of this rut they have dug for themselves. But so far, Islam has held them down. But the day that Iran gives up Islam, I promise you, Iran will rejoin the world and become a truely awesome power for good.



Cyrizian
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To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, that's because fanaticism was gaining popularity during the 1800s. Up until the mid 1700s, the Asian powers were still stornger than Europe.

The reason I care so much about evolution and creation is because it's the MAIN FACTOR imo (along with a lot of supernatural stuff, which by a mind like mine has to be taken metaphorically) which makes christianity seem like a ... no offense, but ... a bit of a fool.
What's more, I just find it interesting.

Ok, there have been civilisations found in India which are older than the biblical earth. How do we know this?
1. Well, stars move, and those civilisations made star maps. So you can extrapolate it backwards to find out when these maps were made.
2. The first high-tech nonsense appeared about 4,000 years ago - more high tech than stuff nowadays. As the previous 6000 years of human history has proved, high-tech stuff doesn't come immediately.
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Vimanas.htm#High-Tech%20Vedic%20Culture%A0

If you take stuff like that as truth (and personally, I do) then civilisation has been around for at least about 20,000 years.

Also, the super old age of the earth is confirmed by more than just radiometric dating. Hinduism says: 4320000000 years. Ancient Chinese go for 23 million yrs. Islam doesnt give an age, but it supports evolution and the big bang.

Furthermore, creation creates a lot of problems which evolution solves. Such as: where did life come from, and different species come from? Where did the universe and the earth come from? Why (How) is day and night created before the sun? Where did languages come from? (please explain this one without using god)

Quote:
THE ORDER OF CREATION

Wilson: Does the Qur'an confirm the statement of the Bible which is contained in the Genesis book about the order in the creation of the universe?

Chirri: The Qur'an does not contain such a statement on the order of the creations. However, Muslims do not subscribe to the contents of the first chapter in Genesis book because it shows some discrepancies.

Wilson: Give me some examples of those contradictions to which you refer.

Chirri: Take the following examples:

1. "Let there be light; and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day." Genesis 1:3-5

This statement indicates that the first thing created was the day and night.

But we know that day and night would come after the existence of the sun and through its rise and set. However, verse 14 from the same chapter indicates that the sun was created on the fourth day:

"And God said, let there be lights in the firmaments of the heavens to separate the day from the night: and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, and let there be lights in the firmament of heavens to give light upon the earth, and it was so. And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; He made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, to rule over the day and over night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning. A fourth day." 1:14-19

This statement indicates that the sun was created on the fourth day, and from here the days should start. This, of course, disagrees with verse 3 which informs us of the start of the day three stages before the formation of the sun.

2. The same chapter states that the vegetation, plants yielding seed, and the fruit trees were created and grown on the third day:

"And God said, 'Let the Earth put forth vegetables and plant yielding seed and the fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the Earth. And it was so. The Earth brought forth vegetation, plants, yielding seed according to their own kinds, and the trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, a third day." 1:11-13

But we know that none of these vegetation and plants could grow without sun, while the same chapter tells us that the sun was created on the fourth day as mentioned before.

3. The same chapter states that God, on the sixth day, created man in His own image:

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our own image, after Our likeness; . . . So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." 1:26-27

Muslims believe that God has no image and no form. He is the Infinite Who encompasses the whole universe. He has neither a body, nor is He material, nor do the visions comprehend Him. To think that God has a form of a man, to the Muslims, is degrading to the whole concept of God.

4. Chapter two contradicts the first chapter. The first chapter, as you know, has stated that vegetation and plants and the trees were created on the third day, before the creation of man, who was created on the sixth day. The second chapter tells us that man was created before vegetation and plants:

"These are the generations of the heavens and the Earth when they were created. In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens . . . when no plant of the field was yet in the Earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up-for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the Earth, and there was no man to till the ground ... but a mist went up from the Earth and watered the whole face of the ground . . . then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being . . . And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the East; and there He put the man whom He had formed.... And out of the ground the Lord God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Genesis 2:4-9

This statement clearly indicates that there was no plant before the creation of man.

There is another point in this statement, namely, that there is a tree of knowledge of good and evil. But we know that knowledge does not grow on trees; it comes through experience and learning.

5. The first chapter has stated that the animal kingdom was created on the fifth day:

"And God said, 'Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let the birds fly above the Earth across the firmament of the heavens.' So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind; and God blessed them.... And there was evening, and there was morning, a fifth day.... And God made the beasts of the Earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind .... Then God said, 'Let us make man in Our image.... ' " 1:20-23

This statement clearly indicates that man was created after the creation of fish, birds, beasts and cattle, but the second chapter indicates that man was created before any of these things:

"Then the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.' So out of the ground the Lord formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them...." 2:18-19

6. We find in the third chapter of the Genesis that Eve was deceived by the serpent which persuaded her to eat from the prohibited tree:

"He (the serpent) said to the woman, 'Did God say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'. . . But the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be open....' " 3:1-5

But we know that a serpent is not capable of speaking, deceiving or persuading. A serpent is not endowed with a mental capacity or ability of pronouncing words and carrying on a conversation.

7. In the same chapter we find what indicates the limitation of the knowledge of God, and that He is a walking body, and that Adam and Eve were able to hide themselves from Him:

"And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, 'Where are you?' and he said, 'I heard the sound of Thee in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.' He said, 'Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?'..." 3:8-1 1


(taken from http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries/4.html)

Besides, unlike the age of the earth, which is comes about by proof, people try to find proof for Creationism, instead of the other way round (which is used in science - first the evidence, then the theory). And some of the proof is a load of nonsense. For example:

Someone said that the fact that languages are getting less complex is proof that we're de-evolving, hence disproving evolution.
LANGUAGES ARE NOT GETTING ANY SIMPLER. It all depends on who's learning it. Personally, I find German far more complex than Latin, simply because I can't get my head around the word order rules but I can do inflections well. (Let me guess, that makes me a freak :p)



Ok, America may well have given good stuff to the world (personally, I think Japan's doing better ...). But, it's also done some horrible things:
1. Creating Osama bin Laden to fight the Soviets
2. Nuking Japan (killing civilians)
3. Ruining Iraq - invading it only for oil (Saddam Hussain was allowed to keep power for several years before bush came in)
4. Massive gap btw rich and poor
5. American double standards: Christians commit terrorism in some country in SE Asia, and America helps them gain independance. Muslims do the same thing elsewhere, and America bombs the hell out of them.
6. http://www.geocities.com/globalghetto/ghetto.pdf



Cyrizian, it's very easy to call someone else hateful without looking at yourself. You've presented yourself as quite hateful in some posts, namely against all forms of islam indiscriminately. And then, there is the entire western hate of all things non-western.
I mean, come on, the church supported Apartheid in South Africa
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Ok, there have been civilisations found in India which are older than the biblical earth. How do we know this?
1. Well, stars move, and those civilisations made star maps. So you can extrapolate it backwards to find out when these maps were made.
2. The first high-tech nonsense appeared about 4,000 years ago - more high tech than stuff nowadays. As the previous 6000 years of human history has proved, high-tech stuff doesn't come immediately.

Well how do you know that the ancient Indians had technology to get the correct alignment?

Quote:

Furthermore, creation creates a lot of problems which evolution solves. Such as: where did life come from, and different species come from? Where did the universe and the earth come from? Why (How) is day and night created before the sun? Where did languages come from? (please explain this one without using god)


Sure thing, well original life was created by God. I believe that some evolution can occur. For instance it takes 6 generations before a child can be born that is used to breathing in low-oxygen environments such as high in the mountains. I believe God made us adaptable, and not just us but all life on the planet. If a creature from one region migrates to another that is inhospitable, they adapt to survive. But complete gene mutation is impossible (such as apes evolving into man).

It is my firm belief that God wishes to fellowship with us. Thats why he created the universe. Maybe he wanted to know what it is like to be a father and nurture children. To be honest Im not sure exactly. But I can tell you this, no child asks, "Daddy, why did you make me?" Because they already know.

About the night and day without the sun, Well first there was only darkness and only light. Then on the 4th day God "separated" the greater light from the lesser light. What this probably means is that He created the moon. And then formed the light into a big sun (as well as made several others throughout the galaxy). But its impossible to tell seeing as no human was yet created to witness these events.

As far as languages go, It is the belief of many theologeans that there was once a "master language" that everybody spoke. Then at the tower of Babel, God caused Agraphia (a common mental illness) in people. Everyone thought they were speaking normally but whenver they reached for a word, they picked something else instead. So only a few could understand each other. And so languge evolved from there.

Quote:
Besides, unlike the age of the earth, which is comes about by proof, people try to find proof for Creationism, instead of the other way round (which is used in science - first the evidence, then the theory). And some of the proof is a load of nonsense.


Well heres the problem with that: I dont believe that humanity will ever have enough science to form a correct idea of what happened. After all the centuries of science, we still know next to nothing. Everything is guesses. Even the theory of evolution is just a guess. We will probably never know enough. That doesn't mean we should stop trying though. It just means we need a lot more time to gather information.

Quote:
Someone said that the fact that languages are getting less complex is proof that we're de-evolving, hence disproving evolution.
LANGUAGES ARE NOT GETTING ANY SIMPLER. It all depends on who's learning it. Personally, I find German far more complex than Latin, simply because I can't get my head around the word order rules but I can do inflections well. (Let me guess, that makes me a freak :p)


Languages have NEVER been as simple as they are now! Try learning ancient Hebrew or Egyptian, heck try old farsi. That'll through you through a loop I guarantee! (trust me, Ive tried hebrew and I honestly dont know how they did it)

Quote:
Ok, America may well have given good stuff to the world (personally, I think Japan's doing better ...). But, it's also done some horrible things:
1. Creating Osama bin Laden to fight the Soviets
2. Nuking Japan (killing civilians)
3. Ruining Iraq - invading it only for oil (Saddam Hussain was allowed to keep power for several years before bush came in)
4. Massive gap btw rich and poor
5. American double standards: Christians commit terrorism in some country in SE Asia, and America helps them gain independance. Muslims do the same thing elsewhere, and America bombs the hell out of them.


Why do you think japans doing better? I dont see them trying to solve WORLD problems.
1. No one created Osama except Osama. He alone chose his path.
2. True but saved 1000s of other lives. (terrible choice but a good trade none the less.)
3.*laughs* I hope you dont seriously think that... First, america invaded Iraq to STOP Saddam, no other reason. period. Second, Saddam is the single most evil man on the face of the earth. What he did to his own people is just so... I dont even want to go into this...
4.That gap is called the middle class. Which I am a proud member of. If it was up to me, there would only be a middle class with no upper or lower classes.
5.I have never heard of this. please elaborate

Quote:
Cyrizian, it's very easy to call someone else hateful without looking at yourself. You've presented yourself as quite hateful in some posts, namely against all forms of islam indiscriminately. And then, there is the entire western hate of all things non-western.
I mean, come on, the church supported Apartheid in South Africa


I look at myself plenty, and I see a man that would give his life for the freedoms of another. And that is all the honor I have in this life. I view it as unconditional love for every man woman and child on earth. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I hate islam because it hurts people. I look in the eyes of Iranians and I see such pain that grieves my heart. And I know that I have to save them anyway I can.

I dont hate non-western things. I LOVE chinese food! Very Happy Seriously though, where did you get this?

Cyrizian
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well how do you know that the ancient Indians had technology to get the correct alignment?


I don't. I'm just reading what's on the site (well, looking at the pics and reading the big bits). And I've chosen to believe it because ... meh, im Indian. :p


Quote:
Languages have NEVER been as simple as they are now! Try learning ancient Hebrew or Egyptian, heck try old farsi. That'll through you through a loop I guarantee! (trust me, Ive tried hebrew and I honestly dont know how they did it)


That really depends on from which viewpoint you're looking at it from. Meh, I speak and Indic language as native (well, and english), and so farsi comes dead easy to me. Latin comes a little harder. Then french. Then German. IMO Latin easier than German.

Besides, modern Farsi's so similar to Pahlavi, the main difference is the alphabet and the lexicon (and a few phonology changes), so it's actually from about 250 BC!

And Avestan's not that difficult.



Quote:
laughs* I hope you dont seriously think that... First, america invaded Iraq to STOP Saddam, no other reason. period. Second, Saddam is the single most evil man on the face of the earth. What he did to his own people is just so... I dont even want to go into this...


Yeah, I wasnt a big fan of him either, but he's been in power since 1979. Now unless he only started massacring recently, America did leave him there for ... a while.



Quote:
I have never heard of this. please elaborate


Ok, I've forgotten the site now, but the story goes something like this:
Somewhere in some little country whose name I've forgotten, a group of christian terrorists blew some stuff up. the Americans sent them aid because it was like a freedom fighter group. When the muslims did similar things a lil later, the Americans came in and blew them up.
i swear it was on that pdf i linked u 2 ...



Quote:
As far as languages go, It is the belief of many theologeans that there was once a "master language" that everybody spoke. Then at the tower of Babel, God caused Agraphia (a common mental illness) in people. Everyone thought they were speaking normally but whenver they reached for a word, they picked something else instead. So only a few could understand each other. And so languge evolved from there.


Ok, now, lets try that one again, but without god.

Although 2 b fair, there probably were a couple of master languages ... maybe different ones for different regions ... but it would probably more like an "uh uh uh oh ah rrrrrrr" type thing due to things like imitating animal calls for words for animals, onomatopoeia, and grunting to get other peoples attention while you show them a painting of yourself throwing spears at a bison.

A little further down the line, you may have had full scale languages, but there were several (not one) - namely proto-altaic, proto-indo-european (oh, you get the picture)



Quote:
I dont hate non-western things.


Ok, that was a brainwave and I've actually forgotten what I meant ... ... .... still nothing

sorry. besides, that wasnt directed at you.

In fact, I have completely forgotten where I got that idea from.

ok, heres the deal. you delete that bit from your post and ill delete it from mine.


Quote:
I view it as unconditional love for every man woman and child on earth.


So you don't hate the Ayatollahs, or Hesbollah, or Al-Kayda, or them people?
....okaaaayyyyy......
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Cyrizian



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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So you don't hate the Ayatollahs, or Hesbollah, or Al-Kayda, or them people?
....okaaaayyyyy......


I hate the evil of these people. But underneath there is still a person. And that is who I love. I hate that good innocent people get brainwashed into thinking that God wants that. God would never want such things. The nazis were evil because they forced people into the gas chambers in order to kill them. But it is far more evil to convince someone that by killing yourself and others, you are doing the right thing. There is a special place in hell for people who harm the innocent. Jesus once said, "If anyone causes these little ones (children) who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Ayatolla Khomenei brainwashed hundreds of little kids into commiting suicide for Allah. Truely, I cannot imagine what horrors he now faces.

Quote:
Although 2 b fair, there probably were a couple of master languages ... maybe different ones for different regions ... but it would probably more like an "uh uh uh oh ah rrrrrrr" type thing due to things like imitating animal calls for words for animals, onomatopoeia, and grunting to get other peoples attention while you show them a painting of yourself throwing spears at a bison.

A little further down the line, you may have had full scale languages, but there were several (not one) - namely proto-altaic, proto-indo-european (oh, you get the picture)


No I'm not talking about simple grunts. You see every major language in the world excells at something. For example Latin is excellent for categorizing things, Farsi is Excellent for poetry, English is good for science although some are better. If you mixed what each language does really right together you will probably come up with something close to the original master language.
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anusiya



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No I'm not talking about simple grunts. You see every major language in the world excells at something. For example Latin is excellent for categorizing things, Farsi is Excellent for poetry, English is good for science although some are better. If you mixed what each language does really right together you will probably come up with something close to the original master language.
hey, my conlang's a master tongue! Razz

Probably. Interesting idea.

I'd say working on grammars, phonology, and lexicons would be a slightly more accurate way of making the master tongue.

But I doubt that the other languages suddenly appeared at the tower of Babel suddenly because god caused an Agraphia.
ok, stress may have caused an agraphia: "aaahh must complete big big tower in 20 minutes SadSadSad" lol

I'd say it was more like dudes migrated and then all the changes came about slowly.

A master tongue is kinda hard to visualise when we think about different types of languages. I mean, if the master tongue was agglutinative, how and why did iniflecting and isolating languages come about? What about vowel harmony?

What's more, for the master language to have been spoken during the time of tower of babel, it would mean that humans wouldnt have migrated very far from Ethiopia (where, according to evolution, they first appeared) since their appearance sometime in about 1000000 BC, seeing as the tower of babel would probably be sometime between 3000 and 600 BC when Ziggurats were in fashion in ME (maybe a little before, but according to the bible, it cant be too long before that seeing as the world was created on 23rd october 4004 BC according to some dude's calculations (btw: ???)).
Besides, at that time, Egyptians, Indians, and various Turkic peoples all lived in different places of the world and spoke different languages.

Personally, imo, if there has to be some sort of master tongue (which explains a lot of similarities in similar grammars but fails when we try to group things like turkish and things like chinese) there would probably a different master languages for each major language family.

Maybe the tower of babel story is only telling the story of the Semitic languages?


Quote:
Farsi is Excellent for poetry


Meh. Personally I'd say Latin and Urdu are little better

PS: I think it's cool how Islam-bashing's turned into linguistic discussion Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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But I doubt that the other languages suddenly appeared at the tower of Babel suddenly because god caused an Agraphia.
ok, stress may have caused an agraphia: "aaahh must complete big big tower in 20 minutes " lol



I think that after the Agraphia, they may have just grouped with other people that spoke something similar, broke off into seperate directions and formed tribes which later solidified into different cultures. But you know it is possible that Nimrod worked his people into overexhaustion as you say, which caused the Agraphia.

Quote:
A master tongue is kinda hard to visualise when we think about different types of languages. I mean, if the master tongue was agglutinative, how and why did iniflecting and isolating languages come about? What about vowel harmony?


Well think about how weird a dialect formed among the cajun population in Louisiana after only 200 years. It is very possible that every language on earth evolved from that one language. I really don't have any problem believing it is at least possible.

Quote:
What's more, for the master language to have been spoken during the time of tower of babel, it would mean that humans wouldnt have migrated very far from Ethiopia (where, according to evolution, they first appeared) since their appearance sometime in about 1000000 BC, seeing as the tower of babel would probably be sometime between 3000 and 600 BC when Ziggurats were in fashion in ME (maybe a little before, but according to the bible, it cant be too long before that seeing as the world was created on 23rd october 4004 BC according to some dude's calculations (btw: ???)).


Believe me, humans first appeared in what is now present day Iraq. (or very close thereabouts) Both the tigris and euphratese rivers flow through here (where the garden of eden is supposed to lie somewhere in between) And Noah's Ark landed around Mt. Ararat. So really they pretty much didn't migrate AT ALL. We dont know if the tower of babel was a ziggurat at all. Although it may have been. I honestly dont know how anyone can accuratly pinpoint the exact day and time that the earth was created. But more than likely it was around 6000 years ago.

Quote:
Maybe the tower of babel story is only telling the story of the Semitic languages?


Somehow I doubt that. It makes sense that humanity didn't want to spread out. They probably thought "strength in numbers." It took a tremendous event like the destruction of the tower and the confusing of the tongues in order to seperate mankind.

Quote:

Meh. Personally I'd say Latin and Urdu are little better


Latin for poetry? I just don't see it. Besides im sure some other language does better than farsi anyways.

Quote:
PS: I think it's cool how Islam-bashing's turned into linguistic discussion


That is bizarre isn't it? But I still aspire to be Islam's #1 enemy. HERE ME IRAN! KOUROSH'S NAME IS MY BATTLECRY!!! DOWN WITH THE MULLAHS!!!
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Believe me, humans first appeared in what is now present day Iraq. (or very close thereabouts)


Although the first civilisations appeared in mesopotamia, evolution says that the first homo-sapiens appeared somewhere around ethiopia.
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