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AmirN
![](http://www.livius.org/a/iran/persepolis/apadana-northstairs-relief/darius_s.JPG)
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 297
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Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: A few questions to ponder |
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Here are a few points to ponder when considering Jesus:
1. Is resurrection really necessary?
Religion’s repeated appeal is to the afterlife and the presence of mind and soul without body. Religion refers to the earthly body as merely a vessel to serve for existence here on Earth, which pales in comparison to the existence that awaits a soul after death.
Many a religious zealot has gone to his death because of this conception. Such souls are revered to live on and exist in a virtuous and happy state, despite of the method of death. Bodies are therefore quite inconsequential after death.
It is claimed that after Jesus’ crucifixion and death, he was resurrected prior to his ascension to the heavens. Why this should even occur, even if it were possible to occur, is enigmatic to the thinking person. As Jesus came from the realm of the spirit, and intended to return to the realm of the spirit, it is puzzling why he would want to take his earthly body with him. Why not just arise to heaven in spirit form? Why all the hooplah with a resurrection? Did Jesus need his earthly body? Was he just trying to put on a show?
Perhaps he did wish to put on a show. However, this is less likely. The show had less to do with him than it did with a convenient story line that would be used in the future in order to recruit members to the cult. A resurrection makes for a wonderful story. Nothing is more intriguing than the ability to somehow cheat death. Every mortal dreams of it. It is a powerful selling tool.
Furthermore, there is the link that Christianity has with all the preceding pagan myths. In those myths, the savior is resurrected after death. As Christianity has borrowed its existence from those mythological stories and cults, so too it has adopted this story of the resurrection.
Why else would resurrection be necessary for a spiritual world?
2. What happened to equal-opportunity healing?
Some religions, especially Christianity, claim the high ground with respect to equality. However, is this really true? How much equality did Jesus really practice?
The question at hand is: “Was Jesus an equal-opportunity healer?” The answer is no. If Jesus had the ability and desire to heal the blind and raise the dead, why did he only extend that skill to a few and not all? If men are somehow meant to be blind or die (by God?), then why heal or resurrect any at all? If on the other hand it is better for a man to not be blind anymore, or to be risen from the dead, why not heal all the blind men and raise all the dead men?
It seems that Jesus showed favoritism to some and shunned others, does it not? If one preaches equality for all mankind, and has a skill that is beneficial for mankind, he must deliver that benefit to all. If he does not, one of the premises must be false. Either he really did not possess such skill, or he did not truly believe in equality for all mankind.
3. Why a mortal mother?
Being the Son of God, why did he have to be born from a mortal mother? Why could his earthly body not just materialize out of clay, similar to Adam? Why go through the trouble of impregnating an unsuspecting mortal woman with God juice?
Incidentally, did Jesus exist as the Son of God in the spirit world prior to his arrival on earth? There is no mention of Jesus sitting next to God as his son anywhere in the old Testament, so one can only assume that the answer is no.
However, if God decided to send his only son to earth in order to bring salvation to mankind, that implies that Jesus already existed prior to his arrival on earth. Otherwise, God decided to have a son just for the purpose of sending him to earth to pay for man’s sins. Therefore, if man had not sinned and evil did not exist, Jesus would have never been conceived or existed in any form. If that is the case, Jesus owes his existence to evil, and was simply a tool of God. This makes for serious father-son resentment issues, does it not?
Again, then answer lies with the probable mythological link that Jesus has with preceding pagan stories. It is a recurring theme for a demi-God to appear among men, born of a father that is a God and a mortal woman. It adds a connection to humanity that humans need to feel their hero possesses. Religious believers need to feel a bridge, or link to the divine by a half-breed of humanity and divinity. Other than that, there is no reason to involve an ordinary woman in the birthing process of a God. It’s all about the story line.
In any case, by using a mortal woman as the mother, Jesus can at best be a demi-God, or half-God. Furthermore, as he was born of a mortal human mother, who by nature carries with her “original sin,” Jesus must have also inherited that original sin. Jesus was therefore ridden with sin. With his ascent to heaven he must have taken some of that sin with him up there. The Godly domain is therefore also contaminated with sin now. Those pesky humans, they are like a pestilence. They have gone and infested God himself with sin; how unfortunate.
4. What is the need for sacrifice?
Why did Jesus have to be tortured and killed in order for humanity to be saved? Could he not have just given his message to mankind, then disappeared into the spirit world without all the torture? Is the Christian God no better than the Aztec Gods that demand blood and sacrifice?
Perhaps it is not the Gods that demand blood and sacrifice, but the humans themselves. Blood, guts, and sacrifice stir powerful animal instincts in men, and it is perhaps these instincts that demand a God, its sacrifices, and the ensuing bloodshed.
The success of the movie “Passion of the Christ” demonstrates just how much humans love to see someone spilling his guts and blood so that they can be “saved,” and such an event is linked with powerful human emotions that drive their faith. Most people like the idea of a martyred hero that died a violent death for others. Whether or not that was really necessary is irrelevant to them. More guts, more blood, more anguish, more suffering is what they wanted to see. Mel Gibson only gave them what they have always wanted.
These were just a few of the many questions one has to ask himself when pondering Jesus. Others are invited to add their own questions and possible explanations to this list.
I’ll leave you with one teasing question, and will say no more about it for now – at least not in this thread:
Did Jesus really exist? _________________ I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage
Naqshe Rostam |
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Cyrizian
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Joined: 05 Apr 2006 Posts: 226 Location: Houston TX
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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
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This is a fascinating subject and as a christian that has been studying this subject extensively, it is my esteemed honor to clear up any confusion on this matter - at least to the degree that I understand it.
On a side note I think the title of this post should be "A few questions to ponder about Jesus"
Quote: | It is claimed that after Jesus’ crucifixion and death, he was resurrected prior to his ascension to the heavens. Why this should even occur, even if it were possible to occur, is enigmatic to the thinking person. As Jesus came from the realm of the spirit, and intended to return to the realm of the spirit, it is puzzling why he would want to take his earthly body with him. Why not just arise to heaven in spirit form? Why all the hooplah with a resurrection? Did Jesus need his earthly body? Was he just trying to put on a show?
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Jesus needed his physical body because he was the first (of many) people who would one day be returned to their earthly bodies. God made our bodies perfect and He intends to one day resurrect us all in our new perfect bodies just as Jesus was resurrected. Heaven is part spiritual and part physical. The garden of Eden was "taken up" to heaven and as we all know adam was a physical being that interacted with the garden. This means that heaven has a physical aspect to it and we need a physical body to interact with a physical object... THEREFORE we will need a physical body in heaven.
Quote: | “Was Jesus an equal-opportunity healer?” The answer is no. If Jesus had the ability and desire to heal the blind and raise the dead, why did he only extend that skill to a few and not all? If men are somehow meant to be blind or die (by God?), then why heal or resurrect any at all? If on the other hand it is better for a man to not be blind anymore, or to be risen from the dead, why not heal all the blind men and raise all the dead men?
It seems that Jesus showed favoritism to some and shunned others, does it not? If one preaches equality for all mankind, and has a skill that is beneficial for mankind, he must deliver that benefit to all. If he does not, one of the premises must be false. Either he really did not possess such skill, or he did not truly believe in equality for all mankind. |
In some regards, it is true that Jesus did not come for everyone because not everyone would accept him. Jesus came for the outcasts, the destitute, the meek, the poor, those who had nothing. He didn't come for the HAVES, He came for the HAVE NOTS. Jesus healed everyone that would come to Him. But if a person did not even take the time to come see Jesus then they obviously didn't want to be healed all that bad. It is the same today, if all we show is a willingness to be healed, then Jesus will meet us halfway. So no, Jesus is not an equal opportunity healer. Jesus only heals those that want to be healed and believe that He can heal them. In the same way Jesus is not an equal opportunity savior. We have to want it and believe it.
Quote: | why did he have to be born from a mortal mother? Why could his earthly body not just materialize out of clay, similar to Adam? |
GOOD QUESTION!!!! Kudos to you for asking this. Very few people have asked this before. The answer is rather interesting and it is rooted in the first book of the Bible, Genesis. "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." -Genesis 3:15
Basically, a man's "seed" is currupted by sin. And so everytime a man has a child with a woman, the child is also currupted by sin. But a woman's seed is not currupted because she was not in charge of the Garden of Eden. That is why to this day the Jews believe a person is a Jew only if his mother is a Jew. So theoretically if a woman were to have a child when a man is not involved (though practically impossible), the child would be free from the curse of sin. *cough* Jesus *cough*
Quote: | Incidentally, did Jesus exist as the Son of God in the spirit world prior to his arrival on earth? There is no mention of Jesus sitting next to God as his son anywhere in the old Testament, so one can only assume that the answer is no |
Now where did you get this?
"I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man (Jesus), and he came even to the ancient of days (God), and they brought him near before him. 14 There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." -Daniel 7:13-14
...ahem..... nuff said.....
Quote: | If that is the case, Jesus owes his existence to evil, and was simply a tool of God. |
I have a feeling that Jesus would have existed even if we hadn't sinned. Of course I can't prove this, but thats just me. But I also have a feeling that God knew full well that we would sin so he knew that Jesus would be necessary.
Quote: | Religious believers need to feel a bridge, or link to the divine by a half-breed of humanity and divinity. Other than that, there is no reason to involve an ordinary woman in the birthing process of a God. It’s all about the story line.
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Its in God's nature to RESTORE things not just simply destroy them and remake them. God likes to prove that he made it right from the beginning. So God wanted to send Jesus through Mary because he wanted to prove that no matter how bad we humans (and satan) mess things up, He can still restore them to perfection.
Quote: | Why did Jesus have to be tortured and killed in order for humanity to be saved? Could he not have just given his message to mankind, then disappeared into the spirit world without all the torture? Is the Christian God no better than the Aztec Gods that demand blood and sacrifice? |
"The wages of sin is death." -Romans 6:23
"As Moses' Teachings tell us, blood was used to cleanse almost everything, because if no blood is shed, no sins can be forgiven." Hebrews 9:22
Someone, somewhere MUST pay the price for sin. And the only currency accepted is blood. Thats how the system works.
Quote: | The success of the movie “Passion of the Christ” demonstrates just how much humans love to see someone spilling his guts and blood so that they can be “saved,” and such an event is linked with powerful human emotions that drive their faith. Most people like the idea of a martyred hero that died a violent death for others. Whether or not that was really necessary is irrelevant to them. More guts, more blood, more anguish, more suffering is what they wanted to see. Mel Gibson only gave them what they have always wanted.
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I have to admit that I think Mel Gibson went a little bit over the top with the blood and guts. But thats only because hes catholic and catholics are obsessed with the blood and death of christ.
Quote: | Did Jesus really exist? |
Interestingly enough, we have more literary evidence that Jesus existed than we do for Napoleon Bonaparte. I could say "Napoleon never existed!" But people would laugh at me because there is enough literary evidence to reasonably prove that this guy was once alive. Although I can still choose, despite the evidence, to believe that he didn't exist. Ultimately, it is up to every individual to decide if Jesus existed and who we believe he is.
Jesus: "But who do you say I am?" -Matthew 16:13 _________________ You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan |
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AmirN
![](http://www.livius.org/a/iran/persepolis/apadana-northstairs-relief/darius_s.JPG)
Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 297
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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Superman,
It seems that I have made quite an impression on you, although unfortunately the converse is not true. You seem to follow my writing religiously (I made a funny). Every time I turn around, there you are, voicing your brilliant commentary. I’ve had a couple of groupies before, but you are by far the most faithful (I made another funny).
It doesn’t really bother me that my articles are followed by your comments. In fact, as I told you before, I find them quite cute. The last time I said that and laughed, you got offended and called me a “product of the Mullahs.” I thought you might have gotten irritated to the point of no return, but apparently I underestimated your deep interest in me.
I said this before, and I’ll say it again: Since I do not find your comments to be worthy of response, I will pass yet again on responding to them. I don’t say this to be mean, but as a matter of fact. In order for me to engage someone in a theological or philosophical debate, both parties have to be on a relatively equivalent level. At the present, I am sorry to say that it is not the case. However, keep up the effort. If I see a marked improvement in your writing and level of analytic thought, I may engage you in discussion in the future.
In the meanwhile, feel free to follow me and post your comments. Your comments actually serve to strengthen my original arguments, and I welcome them. They make me giggle.
Also, feel free to call me arrogant again. There is some truth to it. Humility is not my strong point. If it really makes you feel better, you may also call me a “product of the Mullahs” yet again. It bothers me none. I will turn the other cheek (yet another funny…I’m on a roll today). ![Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) _________________ I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage
Naqshe Rostam |
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Cyrizian
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Joined: 05 Apr 2006 Posts: 226 Location: Houston TX
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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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I only responded because it seemed to me that you were asking these questions out of a genuine interest in the subject. I am sorry if I misread your intention. I read what everyone writes on these boards - not just yours. And I respond to many other posters on this board as well. (So I'm not yours exclusively )
I only said that you may be a product of the mullahs because (like the mullahs) you always think your right and never wish to engage in any discussion. You simply post your thoughts... and thats as far as you take it.
Quote: | both parties have to be on a relatively equivalent level. At the present, I am sorry to say that it is not the case. |
I'm sorry that I am so inferior to you. I rather hoped to be of more interest.
Quote: | Since I do not find your comments to be worthy of response, I will pass yet again on responding to them. |
So why did you bother to post a reply then?
Quote: | However, keep up the effort. If I see a marked improvement in your writing and level of analytic thought, I may engage you in discussion in the future.
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I await with baited breath.
Quote: | In the meanwhile, feel free to follow me and post your comments. Your comments actually serve to strengthen my original arguments, and I welcome them. They make me giggle. |
What can I say? I was BORN to entertain!
Quote: | Also, feel free to call me arrogant again. There is some truth to it. Humility is not my strong point. If it really makes you feel better, you may also call me a “product of the Mullahs” yet again. It bothers me none. I will turn the other cheek |
Your becoming more of a follower of Jesus with every passing day! I am so happy to have been a part of the process! _________________ You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan |
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