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revolution vs invasion
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redemption



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 1158
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blank wrote:
I believe we should use Poland as a model. With the help of US, by that I mean both financial & technological, pay all the workers (oil refinary etc) to go on strike, with masses of demonstrations. And if the rag-heads start masacaring people, then US should arm all Iranians so they can shoot back. The main thing is after you get back the land from this rag-head arabs, then how are you going to clean up all the terrorists brought from, all over the world, Alqaeda, Hamas, Hezbolah, MKO pouring in from Iraq. Then try to deprogram all the "Bazaris" & extreme religous group, communists, JM, Melli-Mazhabi.....IT IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY........


And do you think the EU will just sit aside and watch as their days of looting Iran's natural resources disappears..? The Iranians need to very soon rise up and the United States will be there to support them... The concept of giving a few Iranians guns doesn't work.. The Mullahs must be brought down but general strike and civil disobedience, pressure must be applies externally and from within - enoucraging the Iranian soldiers to turn the guns on the Mullahs!
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redemption



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blank wrote:
I believe we should use Poland as a model. With the help of US, by that I mean both financial & technological, pay all the workers (oil refinary etc) to go on strike, with masses of demonstrations. And if the rag-heads start masacaring people, then US should arm all Iranians so they can shoot back. The main thing is after you get back the land from this rag-head arabs, then how are you going to clean up all the terrorists brought from, all over the world, Alqaeda, Hamas, Hezbolah, MKO pouring in from Iraq. Then try to deprogram all the "Bazaris" & extreme religous group, communists, JM, Melli-Mazhabi.....IT IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY........


Blank: Just wondering, are you Iranian?
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redemption



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about everyone just chills the hell out - we have enough to worry about and get angry about .. we don't need this bullshit infighting..
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redemption



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
the only enemy of our country is the islamic republic and all these mullahs end of story.........the mullahs used the war to get a tight grip on iran and not let anyone open their mouths.......and no im not a mujahed but i have much repect for their efforts......i dont think u know much about mujaheddin........when was the last time u watched simaye azadi???


Exactly.. the Mullahs are #1 enemy.. Second: The MKO obviously have a lot of faults.. but they have also done some positive things... so why can't we accept the situation for what it is and drop this bullshit..
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redemption



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blank wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
it doesnt matter what they are........and if u beleve in them or not....the thing that matters is they are fighting against the islamic republic and we will have a referendom after the regime change to see who will rule the country.........ur personal view means nothing more than one vote Evil or Very Mad .......so suck it up buddy Laughing



You are such a fucking idioit not worth responding to.........your vote is as good as the rag-heads itself since your vote is for bunch of brainwashed idiots like yourself....it is because of morons like you that Iran is in the brink of destruction......not that you introduce yourself as a true MKO that's the end of conversation...........


It's because of all this bullshit that Iran is on the brink of destruction, and also the fact that power corrupts and so many leaders in our history who had the power to do great things fucked it all up because they became corrupted and cared less about COUNTRY and PEOPLE and more ABOUT CASH... How about we target #1 enemy rather than continue this childish argument..
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Faramarz



Joined: 31 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Did you see the kill ratio in Vietnam?


I think about 3 million Vietnamese and 58,000 Americans were killed. Yet, it was America who lost the war.

I can give you other examples. The Soviets killed over 1 million Afghans and lost about 30,000 soldiers. In the end, they were forced to leave. The French killed over 1 million Algerians and lost thousands during that war. In the end, they were forced to leave. There are many situations where inferior guerrilla armies have been able to defeat larger, more sophisticated militaries. They don't necessarily do this by winning battles. They fight on until thier enemy becomes tired. Look at Iraq.

Quote:
You'll need to specify which bit here. North Vietnam was
not invaded. South Vietnam was under complete control.
It was a victory. The North licked their wounds, got fresh
arms from the Russians, then had another go. The South
were refused funding by the Democratic congress, so
without the arms to fight, the South surrendered. This was
years after the Americans pulled out..


America's goal in the war was to make sure South Vietnam did not fall to the Communists. In 1975, the North Vietnamese invaded and conquered the South. In that year, America lost the war. The fact that America had offically pulled out of the conflict two years earlier did not matter.

Quote:
If the Americans
had either supplied weapons, or provided air cover, the
North Vietnamese would have been defeated yet again.


I don't know about that. The South Vietnamese soldiers had very low morale and did not want to fight. The North Vietnamese soldiers were very good fighters and were eager to fight. Even if America had continued to supply arms, I'm not sure that it would have made a huge difference.
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Faramarz



Joined: 31 Dec 2003
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Exactly.. the Mullahs are #1 enemy.. Second: The MKO obviously have a lot of faults.. but they have also done some positive things... so why can't we accept the situation for what it is and drop this bullshit..


I agree that we should stop this infighting. The democratic opposition should focus on overthrowing the Islamic Republic. They are the #1 enemy. I have said the same thing on other forums. But we should not ally ourselves with groups like the Mujahadeen. They are followers of an Islamic-Marxist totalitarian ideology. They are worse than the mullahs. We should ignore them.
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9karevatan



Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 843

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i meant to say that i am proud of maryam rajavi and i pressed b instead of v and u can confirm this by looking at my earlier posts which i put v............also i dont understand y u guys hate everyone that isnt communints..........who cares if they help fight........if u really dont think that ppl will support them in the end then its good for them to fight the enemy........plus u might as well cheer them on nomatter what u beleive......i know that most iranians are pro democratic.....but we cannot just put the rest aside.....thas just not right because at the step we are on we are doing the same thing....which is fighting to overthrow the government........i dont care if the worst person starts fighting against the regime because i wuold let them no matter what......it doesnt even matter how they think because thas the next step with a referandom......as far as mujaheddin is concerned......one must admit that they are very active and strong and that they do alot to overthrow this regime.....plus they have news like no other and the video clips and pictures they have are exclusively from among themselves.....and plus they have shiro khorshid.......so as far as representing iranians thas fine with me
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 65
Location: australia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> I think about 3 million Vietnamese and 58,000 Americans
> were killed. Yet, it was America who lost the war.

Yeah. Good luck in Iran.

> I can give you other examples. The Soviets killed over
> 1 million Afghans and lost about 30,000 soldiers. In the
> end, they were forced to leave.

This is propaganda from our side. They weren't forced to
leave. That rate of loss was perfectly sustainable. And
that actually forcing the Afghans to do something against
their will. In the case of Iran, we're not trying to force
the people to do anything. We're forcing their government
to allow the people to vote in free and fair elections.

Can't you see the difference between USA in Afghanistan
and USSR in there?

But regardless of that. For as long as USSR wished to
impose communism, it was very simple to do. The only
reason they gave up doing that was for the same reason
they gave it up at home. Gorbachev no longer wished to
force people to accept communism.

> The French killed over 1 million Algerians and lost
> thousands during that war. In the end, they were
> forced to leave. There are many situations where
> inferior guerrilla armies have been able to defeat
> larger, more sophisticated militaries.

No there isn't. Give me a list of all wars that the USA
has been in that you consider they lost. What percentage
was that?

> They don't necessarily do this by winning battles.
> They fight on until thier enemy becomes tired. Look
> at Iraq.

Yeah, look at Iraq indeed. Can't you see? A low cost war.
The guerillas have absolutely no chance of success. The
Iraqis will be able to manage themselves. The US are
already withdrawing from the city centres and the Iraqis
are taking over. It's becoming self-sustaining.

> America's goal in the war was to make sure South
> Vietnam did not fall to the Communists.

That was their goal up until 1972, correct. After that, the
goals were different between Democrats and Republicans.
Republicans wanted to continue that policy. Democrats
decided that the supposedly fascist capitalist pricks in the
south could go jump in a lake. The Democrats got their
way. The left has a lot to answer for.

> In 1975, the North Vietnamese invaded and conquered
> the South. In that year, America lost the war.

No, in that year the South lost against the revamped North.

> The fact that America had offically pulled out of the
> conflict two years earlier did not matter.

What matters is the new Democrat policy that no longer
wished to keep the North out.

> I don't know about that.

Look, if you don't provide the funds for fighting, then you
can't possibly say the south would have lost. The fact is,
the Americans never contested it. They didn't even allow
the south to contest it. They handed millions over to the
commies without a fight. It was atrocious.

> The South Vietnamese soldiers had very low morale
> and did not want to fight.

That's just making things up. It's very difficult to beat
superior air power.

> The North Vietnamese soldiers were very good fighters
> and were eager to fight.

So said the communist propaganda anyway. Check the
kill ratio again.

> Even if America had continued to supply arms, I'm not
> sure that it would have made a huge difference.

Unfortunately we'll never know for sure. All we know for
sure is that the Democrats sold out millions to the commies,
and never paid a political price for that unconscionable
decision. The other thing we know for sure is that the
South was never contested, so the inevitable was inevitable.
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 65
Location: australia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redemption wrote:
blank wrote:
I believe we should use Poland as a model. With the help of US, by that I mean both financial & technological, pay all the workers (oil refinary etc) to go on strike, with masses of demonstrations. And if the rag-heads start masacaring people, then US should arm all Iranians so they can shoot back. The main thing is after you get back the land from this rag-head arabs, then how are you going to clean up all the terrorists brought from, all over the world, Alqaeda, Hamas, Hezbolah, MKO pouring in from Iraq. Then try to deprogram all the "Bazaris" & extreme religous group, communists, JM, Melli-Mazhabi.....IT IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY........


And do you think the EU will just sit aside and watch as their days of looting Iran's natural resources disappears..? The Iranians need to very soon rise up and the United States will be there to support them... The concept of giving a few Iranians guns doesn't work.. The Mullahs must be brought down but general strike and civil disobedience, pressure must be applies externally and from within - enoucraging the Iranian soldiers to turn the guns on the Mullahs!


The EU is not looting Iran's natural resources. Oil is sold at world prices. And yes, I do think the EU will either sit aside or it will join the coalition. What other option did you think they would consider?

As for the civil disobedience. Let me just hope that the number pointlessly slaughtered on yet another forlorn attempt at trying to achieve the impossible is less than the last time the same old same old happened.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i BLAME THE US PRESIDENT WHICH DECLARED THE END OF THE VIETNAM WAR. THE US HAD TO FINISH THE JOB.. INSTEAD THEY HAVE LEFT THE SOUTH TO FALL IN THE HANDS OF THE GENOCIDAL NAZI-COMMUNISTS AND TODAY WE CONTINUE TO SEE BOAT PEOPLE AND REFUGEES AND PERSECUTIONS AGAINST MONTAGNARDS,ETC..

NIXON HAD TO FINISH THE JOB.

THE NAZI-COMMUNISTS HAVE INVADED AND OCCUPIED SOUTH VIETNAM AND ESTABLISH THEIR REIGN OF TERROR ON AN INNOCENT PEOPLE.

FREE VIETNAM NOW !!

FREE FROM THE NAZI-COMMUNISTS !!
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 65
Location: australia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> NIXON HAD TO FINISH THE JOB.

It was under control! Just like the Northern Alliance managed to defeat the Taliban after air superiority was provided. The US merely needed to keep the south armed, to match the north.

Things like northern tanks can easily be defeated. Without tanks, the commies couldn't win. Bit like the Iranians essentially have no chance against tanks. The military can easily handle unarmed civilians. Hell, it can easily handle armed civilians too, if they're only armed with rifles. You need to at least bring an RPG to the party if you want to have a chance against a tank. How many RPGs do the Iranian children have? And remember. Logistics, logistics, logistics.

By the way, I'd like to respond to someone else who claimed that the US would colonize Iran, comparing the US to other colonizers, and thus the invaders should be opposed.

I think it is about time that these left wing lies about US imperialism should be exposed once and for all. It seems to be fashionable to blame the nearest English-speaking white male for all the world's problems. How about first of all giving them credit for all the advances that they have made to eradication of disease, technological advances that are used everywhere, concepts of freedom of democracy, saving the world from communism etc.

I mean, even the colonies of Britain were done at a time that if it wasn't Britain, it would be some other power. Britain was the safest pair of hands you could put it in, if you were concerned about the advancement of the cause of freedom and democracy. Gandhi succeeded entirely due to the fact that Britain was a decent "ruler" in the first place. And when comparing rule, I wonder what standard is being used? Is colonial Zimbabwe or Sierra Leone better or worse than the current independent entities? Number of human rights abuses etc. I'm hard pressed to find someone who actually did a better job than the British.

And for all the talk about slavery, how come Britain is never mentioned for eradicating the slave trade, and no mention is ever made about all the whites who died killing other whites to free the blacks in America?

And I ask, when was the last time America did something obviously bad, out of pure selfish greed, like invading a country to steal territory and loot? The fact is, the current western "rulers" are at the pinnacle of human decency. As hard as that fact is to swallow, it's a fact nonetheless. More people should be looking to copy western culture instead of desperately ensuring they preserve their own.

Look at the cheers that went up in 1979 as one rotten dictatorship was replaced by yet another rotten dictatorship. It's not like democracy and human rights are concepts that were invented since 1979. The answer to a better life and decency has been in the western countries for many years, it was always the "gold standard", and the gold has shone better and better through the years as we became more and more enlightened ourselves. People who seek to distance themselves from our currently pretty damned enlightened state are simply nihilistic. Whether it's China's cultural revolution or Iran's islamic revolution, one thing's for sure, they never hold a candle to the west, ever.

It is about time someone started calling all these anti-Americans out for what they are. Racist bigots. The left pretends that it is on a higher plane, it isn't. It hasn't even found where the game is being played.

I ask you to look at the recent history of Iran, and ask what anti-American activities Iran was engaging in that would make the CIA want to overthrow the president. And ask yourself whether the Iranians, the people themselves, have basically opposed the west, immorally, for a lot longer than the current regime. I'm wondering what these "proud Iranians" who intend to shoot the western liberators have to actually be proud about in their recent history.

Anyway, can I ask these proud Iranians to at least wait for about 2 years before fighting off the oppressive American colonialists. That will be enough time that we'll be leaving anyway (but feel free to claim it as a glorious victory against the entire western world), and you can go back to your normal standards of decency we've come to love from that area of the world. Probably without your nukes, sorry about that, looks like we do go in for looting after all. With a bit of luck, you might even manage to find 1 or 2 US soldiers who rape a girl, and you will have proof positive about the imperialist US policy of systematically raping the entire population of Iran. Yeah yeah, heard it all before.

It's no wonder there's a strong tendency in the west to not intefere with other countries, no matter how brutal they are to their own people, given that the ungrateful foreigners inevitably blame us for everything that ever goes wrong. I can understand that tendency in the west, but I personally prefer not to follow it. I think that regardless of the howls from European has-beens et al, we should think of the girls who are GENUINELY being systematically raped, and even if 90% of the target population screams obscenities at us, so long as we can keep them from raping the 10%, that's good enough to count as "success", by "local, culturally-sensitive standards".

One thing I wish "proud Iranians" would do is stay in their country where they can be "proud" of their special "Iranian culture" (so much better than modern western culture), instead of queing up to get into mine, where we have slightly different things to be proud of. Either that or drop the pretence that Iranians have done anything in recent times to be proud of, and instead just join the rest of us in our supposedly "American" culture. And yeah, that involves watching exciting Hollywood movies instead of beating bongo drums or whatever the hell your proud traditions insist you do over there when you're not raping girls to ensure they don't get into heaven, or installing yet more anti-western dictators to prove you know better than us.

Yeah yeah, I know. I'm the one who's the REAL racist bigot. Male chauvanist pig and all. Yada yada yada. That's why we'll be leaving as soon as we've got our hands on the nukes and implemented minimal standards of human decorum. Don't want to outstay our "welcome". Was I the only one who noticed Aristide calling us racist for not supporting his black gangland rule against some black rebels. Or Mandela accusing us of not doing something-or-other because the secretary general was a black? That's right guys. All whites are racist, and we'll be leaving your country as quickly as humanly possible. Iran for the Iranians!!!

By the way, on al-sistani's website (www.sistani.org) I found out that Kafirs are "najis", just like faeces. Right. Thanks for letting me know. It almost looked like a cut and paste job from the Republican Party manifest.

Let me tell you something. If hundreds of thousands of Iranians die because they are trying to shoot the invading western imperialist forces, who are clearly no different to Saddam's thugs, well, that isn't collateral damage, that's targets of opportunity. My estimate is that it will probably be more like 1000 dead, that the majority of Iranians are not that stupid. But either way, it is Iran's choice whether they want to do it the hard way or the easy way. The result will be strategically identical either way. No more nukes. No more government-sanctioned rape. Mandatory democracy. For the rest you're on your own.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear, don't care about what an exile says..

He writes like that because he lives in the exile ... As i told you, the Iranians in Iran wish the Marines to help them .


Be sure that they would be welcomed with kisses and hugs and flowers.

Pro-american sentiment grows stronger every day more.

Wink

Sadly, there are some opportunists which love to tell lies and they are those that, along with khomeini, have contributed to create misconceptions and false charges against the iranian people.

It's something that must be blamed on those people that ,like here, continue their cospiracy theories.

As i said, there are many iranians in iran which are frustrated because they don't know how to make the world public opinion know their real opinions!

I think that Iranshahr (Faramarz) should tell his opinions freely, but he should speak for himself and not on behalf of the iranian people.

If he says "my opinion is " then people realize that it's his own personal opinion.

But if he claims to speak on behalf of the Iranian people, he contributes to create misconceptions among the western public opinion.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerravon, Europe is looting Iran's national resources.

It's a true fact,

It's not America that is looting, but Europe.

Call me anti-Europeist, because i am like that. I am against this Europe.

I feel i am an American and Italian at the same time.

I support America's primacy in the world,because French-United Nations-primacy has done a lot of damage. The Arab and dictatorial countries have control of the world and the world media (specially the EU media) plus they control the UN, the International Criminal Court, etc..

It's bad that a world like this is controlled and dominated by the tyrants.

For this i am for a US-NEOCONS's primacy in the world.

I am for exporting the US-Neocons Values and Democracy.

I am for exporting/promoting of democracy and liberal-free markets ideals.

I am a neocons-supporter.

I don't support the Republican "realists-isolationists" nor the ultra-leftist Democratic Party of people like John "Carter" Kerry that would appease all the world's worst tyrants, from the mullahs to Fidel Castro,etc..

I disagree with some visions of Rumsfeld,Rice, and specially the State Dept.

I agree with Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith,John Bolton,Richard Perle,David Frum, Michael Ledeen, which are neocons and Bush-supporters and for that they wish him to purse a democratic global revolution.

I like their vision of exporting/promoting democracy in all the non-democratic countries.

These include: China,Lybia (Qadhafi is still a dictator),North Korea,Cuba,Iran,Sirya,Lebanon,Palestine,Haiti,etc.

I believe that democracy is a right for everyone.

I don't believe that a non-democratic regime can do "reforms"-
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
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Location: australia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefania, you are a fellow "democratic imperialist". Pleased to meet you. Smile I agree with 90% of what you say, but please don't call it a US mission. It belongs to all the democratic countries who can still tell the difference between right and wrong. That is why we have NATO, we are allies in this struggle for liberal democratic/secular humanism supremacy.

And I thank you that Italy joined in. It's so much nicer to have Italy helping us instead of shooting at us like before (WWII). Smile Even though Australia is unfortunately not a member of NATO due to geographical restrictions, I consider Italy and other democracies to be my brothers who should be defended against whoever wishes to do them harm. Did you see the Taiwanese on TV just in the last hours? They need to be protected against their aggressive neighbour, whatever the cost. I hope they know we love them. PRC pretends to care about them. It shows its care with missiles!!!

But still, you are wrong about the EU stealing oil. It is not stealing oil, it is buying it at world prices. The world prices are not governed by the mullahs. You can say the mullahs are stealing the oil by wasting it on nukes (which we plan on stealing). That is not the EU. If the EU doesn't buy, someone else buys (rest of the world). The price is the same no matter who buys it, China, EU, Africa.

This war is going very well. I believe we are in the "end of history". I am just worried that the neocons will stop setting policy. So long as they stay in control, we (free world) will be in an unassailable position.

Have you seen the map of the world at www.freedomhouse.org ?
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