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Big 3 EU Foreign Policy (England, France, and Germany)
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 65
Location: australia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: d Reply with quote

neverthought wrote:
Kerravon - you have no idea what you're talking about.... None at all - you are an apologist for the regime and a propogator of mass disinformation.. Continue to post your worthless garb, we all know better..


Everyone used to "know" that the world was flat too.

I also noticed you actually failed to show any technical flaw in my arguments.

As far as "regime apologist", I'm the one who intends to REALLY topple the regime. YOU are the one who is insisting that the regime should stay for as long as it takes for Iranian children to find a way of beating automatic weapons, something they have failed to do to date.

I wouldn't so much call you a regime apologist as someone who is advocating policies that would see the regime stay in power. I saw an Iraqi, probably paid by Saddam, on TV saying exactly the same thing, ie "Iraqis are very smart, they can topple Saddam on their own".

I think you are more likely to be naive than a paid stooge, but the result is the same. Armed mullahs kill OTHER Iranian children in a turkey-shoot.

I ask you to really have a think about your "conspiracy theory" where you can possibly think that by advocating western force to put the end to the mullah's regime once-and-for-all can possibly be construed as a "regime apologist". It says a lot about your mindset.

Another thing telling about the mindset is that the Iranians here don't appear to be able to accept criticism of their "pet theories" well, and would rather call me names, even names that are clearly 100% false, rather than question whether sending children to their death is an appropriate policy to advocate. THINK RATIONALLY.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: d Reply with quote

kerravon wrote:
I'm from Australia by the way, and I fully expect our troops to be deployed in this effort, as they were in Iraq. I would expect the Iranians to help me if the situation were reversed, and I would consider failure to come to my assistance to be gross selfishness, the likes of which we haven't seen since, well, Switzerland, Non-aligned Movement, etc etc.


Are you trained military intelligence officer ?
If you are, some of your unclassified information that you are exposing here it is not correct.
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 65
Location: australia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:38 am    Post subject: Re: d Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
kerravon wrote:
I'm from Australia by the way, and I fully expect our troops to be deployed in this effort, as they were in Iraq. I would expect the Iranians to help me if the situation were reversed, and I would consider failure to come to my assistance to be gross selfishness, the likes of which we haven't seen since, well, Switzerland, Non-aligned Movement, etc etc.


Are you trained military intelligence officer ?
If you are, some of your unclassified information that you are exposing here it is not correct.


No. Perhaps you'd like to outline the unclassified info that is incorrect, so I can actually counter the point?

I expect our troops to be deployed mainly because they have been in the past. The only war of note that Australia wasn't involved in was the attack on Yugoslavia, because it was a NATO affair.

I saw mention that NATO PfP was being expanded to India and Pakistan, so probably eventually Australia will become a member.

Anyway, like I said, you need to be specific about which technical point you think is incorrect, preferably with supporting evidence.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: d Reply with quote

kerravon wrote:
preferably with supporting evidence.

What do you consider as evidence, and what do you consider as conspiracy theory ?
For example what do you need as an evidence to accept Khomeni as British mercenary ?
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 65
Location: australia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: d Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
kerravon wrote:
preferably with supporting evidence.

What do you consider as evidence, and what do you consider as conspiracy theory ?
For example what do you need as an evidence to accept Khomeni as British mercenary ?


Man, I wish. If Britain was controlling Khomeni, it would be a simple matter to get the British to get Khomeni to allow anyone to stand for election, hold immediate elections, and then get him to step aside, and make the elected parliament the head of state.

And if Britain refused to do this, I would support kicking them out of NATO and the EU and imposing economic sanctions on them.

If only it were that simple.

It is not possible to prove a negative. If you have some evidence that Khomeni is getting orders from Britain, then let's hear about it. Exactly what mechanism does Khomeni use? Does he read the Foreign Office's web site, see what Britain has publicly stated it wants for Iran, and then adopted them?

Given that Prime Ministers in Britain change all the time, do all Prime Ministers think the same regarding Iran? Does the cabinet approve it, or is it just a "lucky" string of coincidences?

In a conspiracy theory, you have to fabricate all these aspects in order to make up the story. That's why it's a conspiracy theory. It's not based on speeches by the Prime Minister, not based on the outcome of inquiries, not based on their publicly stated policy you can find on their web site. It's all based on, nothing.

If you can find the US State Department detailing how Britain pulls Khomeni's strings, I would consider that good evidence too. Or Rumsfeld. I'll accept stuff from the French and German (dated after 1945) governments too. Or Poland (dated after 1991). Or Australia.

In other boards, people say that the US is the biggest threat in the world. The answer is the same "I wish". If all the US had to do was stand down it's military, and the world would be 100% democracies, 100% respect for human rights, 100% safe, wow, man, I'd be calling for that too.

Unfortunately, I deal with reality, and the only thing keeping us safe at night is the combined western military power. And it is in a race against time to find all the world's WMD and all the world's terrorists. Or at least make a huge dent in same.
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quarreling among ourselves will not help free Iran.

If the US votes in Kerry, then the Iranians can condemn us all they want because I will be in full agreement. If George Bush wins then we need to keep his feet to the fire about that terrible regime. I think he has more morality than almost any world leader today.

As an American I appreciate Tony Blair's help in Iraq since politically we couldn't have gone in alone. I think Tony Blair and Prince Charles may be on different pages here in regard to Iran. Incidentally, in hindsight were Britain and the collaberators correct in supporting the Sha's coup? I hear he was actually a good ruler. I realize they may have been doing it for the wrong reasons, but sometimes things work out well despite bad intentions.
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 65
Location: australia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

American Visitor wrote:
Quarreling among ourselves will not help free Iran.

If the US votes in Kerry, then the Iranians can condemn us all they want because I will be in full agreement. If George Bush wins then we need to keep his feet to the fire about that terrible regime. I think he has more morality than almost any world leader today.

As an American I appreciate Tony Blair's help in Iraq since politically we couldn't have gone in alone. I think Tony Blair and Prince Charles may be on different pages here in regard to Iran. Incidentally, in hindsight were Britain and the collaberators correct in supporting the Sha's coup? I hear he was actually a good ruler. I realize they may have been doing it for the wrong reasons, but sometimes things work out well despite bad intentions.


With regards to the infighting, my main interest was in finding out why Iranians were opposed to military intervention, as I wanted to know what the situation was going to be like when the inevitable invasion happens. I also thought I would attempt to explain why it was most likely necessary, and why they shouldn't make things more difficult.

As for the 1953 coup, quite frankly, I don't care what happens to people who supported the USSR. There was an important war on, the Iranians were on the wrong side (again). That war is finished now. If they wish to return to communism, this time not posing a security risk, more power to them. The fact is, the west lived to fight another day. Which is why we're now in a position of being able to help them out of another one of their messes (ie voting for an Islamic state).

I doubt that the Iranians will return to either of those failed ideologies, so everything looks good. Just need the vote to go the right way this year. Let's hope the US isn't stupid enough to vote for a commie sympathizer.

I don't think you should say "politically we couldn't go in alone". Quite frankly, in the case of Israel, the US is a lone voice in the wilderness. That doesn't mean the US is in the wrong. Any logical analysis leads to the conclusion that the US is right, despite the moral bankruptcy of the rest of the world.

The important thing is that none of these people are actually shooting at the US. The second most important thing is that even countries like France are helping out elsewhere, e.g. Afghanistan. They're not that bad. They're not enemies. They are peaceful countries.

It would have been a mistake to make the liberation of Iraq dependent on someone else's veto. Would you really condemn Zeyad, Ays, Sarmad and Ali (www.healingiraq.com) to chains, just because other countries unfortunately happen to have left-wing governments dominating AT THE MOMENT? And don't forget that these left-wingers have been brainwashed by Soviet propaganda, it isn't entirely their fault. The Soviets were damn good, and haven't properly been countered.

E.g. why isn't the US education system educating children about the Soviet lies, so that EVERYONE knows that Kerry was just another naive dupe? Personally, I blame Bush for not educating people when he had a chance (ie now). All he has to do is spread this URL:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/pacepa200402260828.asp

The Vietnam war needs to be rewritten. Even soldiers have been convinced that they were fighting for the wrong reason, which was never the case.

Don't appease the brainwashed. Do it for Ali and other neocons, which every country has, just waiting to be set free. Man, it is SO GOOD to be able to send an email to an Iraqi, and to read their web site.

And look at this, an Arab chatting to a Jew:
http://roadofanation.blogspot.com/2004_03_07_roadofanation_archive.html#107883343623646424

What do you think that will do for peace in the region? I wish *current* Europe wasn't left wing, but we have to face reality. Don't forget that just because the majority of France didn't support the war, there was something like 30%. Do the invasion (Iraq/Iran/Syria) for them, not the brainwashed ones (who talk very loudly).

Do it for Zeyad, don't do it for Riverbend (or other Saddam lookalikes).
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abaucero



Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Italia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you Kerravon, I also think it was our duty to free Iraq and I feel really angry whenever I read leftist propaganda. By the way, I also read Iraqi blogs and whenever I read what those Iraqis write I feel more and more convinced that it was the right thing to do. People like Alaa, Zeyad and their friends can show well that Iraq is not just full of terrorists and people who hate the US. I also agree with you on another point: it's very hard that there will be a true revolution in Iran, the repressive machine is too strong, sooner or later the invasion will come, and then I hope that Iranian people will understand that their country is not in danger, but it's being liberated.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEAR ANDREA, I'M VERY SORRY THAT I DISAGREE WITH YOU ON SOME POINTS OF YOUR POST.

I THINK THAT IT'S THE IRANIAN PEOPLE WHICH CAN GET RID OF THE MULLAHS. AFTER ALL, THESE DAYS NEWS SUPPORT MY POINT. I AM CONVINCED THAT ANOTHER EXPENSIVE MILITARY CAMPAIGN IS NOT NECESSARY IN IRAN, AS IT WAS NOT IN THE CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.

I HOPE THAT THE BUSH ADMIN IMPOSE SANCTIONS ON THE ISLAMIC REGIME, WHICH WILL BE A GOOD STEP..

RATHER, WE FREE ITALIANS SHOULD PRESSURE OUR SO-CALLED "REPRESENTATIVES" TO STOP DEALING WITH THE MULLAHS. I AM DISGUSTED WHEN I SEE FRATTINI GO TO SHAKE THE HANDS OF THE CRIMINAL MULLAHS AND THEN BACK HOME AND SAY: " IRAN WANTS TO COOPERATE FOR WORLD'S PEACE AND STABILITY". WHAT HELL HE SAYS ???

I HAVE VOTED FOR THIS GOVT, BUT I WOULD STAY AT HOME NEXT TIME. THEY ARE NOT MUCH DIFFERENT THAN THE PREVIOUS LEFTIST GOVT. IT'S THE SAME OLD POLITICAL CLASS THAT IS NOT GOOD.

WE NEED TO CHANGE AND I THINK THAT MY PROJECT IS A GOOD FIRST STEP..I THINK THAT IF WE WANT TO CHANGE SOME THINGS, WE SHOULD TAKE THE INITIATIVE. I THINK THAT WE SHOULD START THIS PROJECT, OTHERWISE IF CHANGE IS NOT POSSIBLE, MY FINAL DECISION IS TO LEAVE ITALY AND GO TO LIVE IN THE US WHERE AT LEAST THERE ARE SERIOUS PEOPLE..BIAS IN THE NEWSPAPERS IS IN THE US ALSO,BUT AT LEAST THERE IS SOME NEWSPAPER THAT TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT IRAN,IRAQ,ETC... HERE YOU CAN'T FIND ANY NEWSPAPER ( WHETHER LEFTIST OR "RIGHTIST") THAT TELLS THE TRUTH ABOUT IRAN AND IRAQ AND IS OBJECTIVE ABOUT THE AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY. THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS.


WE ITALIANS MUST WAKE UP AND TAKE THE INITIATIVE.
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sudi



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 235
Location: Plano, TX

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Big 3 EU Foreign Policy (England, France, and Germany) Reply with quote

Quote:
I get my "misinformation" from knowledge of western society,


"knowledge of western society"? [sic] You do realize that the Iranian expats that you so abhor reside in these western societies. We don't get our info from Al-Jazeera ...

Quote:
You get your "misinformation" from basically making up any old conspiracy theory.


Do you still feel that you have to remain loyal to your "mother country"?! Anyway, you stick to your conspiracy theories, I'll stick to mine. But alas, I have basis for my theories. You seem to get yours from some Nazi/fanatic manifesto.

Quote:
Basically, I have thought it through, and this is the only option I am confident will work.


I'll notify the president.

Quote:
The Iranian expats are the ones who ... just want to see unarmed children die. Or women, as we saw a couple of days ago, entirely predictable ...


This is the part of your unintelligible argument that gets my blood boiling. How dare you suggest this? You're the one who wouldn't mind killing men, women, and children. You're the trigger-happy militia-man. Frankly, your way of thinking is quiet similar to that of the mullahs and their thugs. Are you an Islamist in disguise?

Quote:
One good thing about Iranian conspiracy theories is that they help our side win the war.


Did Australia win a war while I wasn't looking? Oh you mean, the genocide ... err ... war on the aboriginals?

Also, to clarify my stance ... I believe we should give revolution a chance and do everything in our power to help it through. Military intervention may be unavoidable, but it has to be the last standing option.

And in the future, try and keep your bellicosity and loquacity down to a minimum. Your meaningless points are well understood; you don't have to keep repeating yourself over and over and over ...
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glaceau
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:21 pm    Post subject: h Reply with quote

I'll second that - Wink
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 65
Location: australia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefania wrote:
DEAR ANDREA, I'M VERY SORRY THAT I DISAGREE WITH YOU ON SOME POINTS OF YOUR POST.

I THINK THAT IT'S THE IRANIAN PEOPLE WHICH CAN GET RID OF THE MULLAHS. AFTER ALL, THESE DAYS NEWS SUPPORT MY POINT. I AM CONVINCED THAT ANOTHER EXPENSIVE MILITARY CAMPAIGN IS NOT NECESSARY IN IRAN, AS IT WAS NOT IN THE CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.

I HOPE THAT THE BUSH ADMIN IMPOSE SANCTIONS ON THE ISLAMIC REGIME, WHICH WILL BE A GOOD STEP..

RATHER, WE FREE ITALIANS SHOULD PRESSURE OUR SO-CALLED "REPRESENTATIVES" TO STOP DEALING WITH THE MULLAHS. I AM DISGUSTED WHEN I SEE FRATTINI GO TO SHAKE THE HANDS OF THE CRIMINAL MULLAHS AND THEN BACK HOME AND SAY: " IRAN WANTS TO COOPERATE FOR WORLD'S PEACE AND STABILITY". WHAT HELL HE SAYS ???

I HAVE VOTED FOR THIS GOVT, BUT I WOULD STAY AT HOME NEXT TIME. THEY ARE NOT MUCH DIFFERENT THAN THE PREVIOUS LEFTIST GOVT. IT'S THE SAME OLD POLITICAL CLASS THAT IS NOT GOOD.

WE NEED TO CHANGE AND I THINK THAT MY PROJECT IS A GOOD FIRST STEP..I THINK THAT IF WE WANT TO CHANGE SOME THINGS, WE SHOULD TAKE THE INITIATIVE. I THINK THAT WE SHOULD START THIS PROJECT, OTHERWISE IF CHANGE IS NOT POSSIBLE, MY FINAL DECISION IS TO LEAVE ITALY AND GO TO LIVE IN THE US WHERE AT LEAST THERE ARE SERIOUS PEOPLE..BIAS IN THE NEWSPAPERS IS IN THE US ALSO,BUT AT LEAST THERE IS SOME NEWSPAPER THAT TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT IRAN,IRAQ,ETC... HERE YOU CAN'T FIND ANY NEWSPAPER ( WHETHER LEFTIST OR "RIGHTIST") THAT TELLS THE TRUTH ABOUT IRAN AND IRAQ AND IS OBJECTIVE ABOUT THE AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY. THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS.


WE ITALIANS MUST WAKE UP AND TAKE THE INITIATIVE.


I just read the news today, to find out why you thought that revolution was imminent. The only thing I saw was that Iran is continuing to stuff around with nukes. They are so stupid, giving us a pretext. Unfortunately human rights is not pretext enough in this world to liberate a country. I wish it was, but there's a lot of nervous nellies around.

The actual combat phase is not that expensive (as a percentage of GDP). It's hanging around for peacekeeping that's more of a problem. I think in the case of Iran we should not hang around. Keep the existing infrastructure etc, just change the leaders at the top and call free and fair elections.

Please don't stay home. Italy didn't provide troops during the combat phase, but did approve of the action. That was VERY WELCOME. Also, they provided peacekeeping troops, also, VERY WELCOME. THANK YOU ITALY!

As for newspapers telling the truth - you don't need to go to the US to fix that problem. That's what www.healingiraq.com et al are for! And www.nationalreview.com is online, there's no need to go to the US to read it. All you need to do is learn English, which you clearly already have. Also www.rightwingnews.com

In actual fact, if you really, really can't do without a physical newspaper, printouts are not acceptable, you will probably find that you can order American newspapers from your local newsagent.

Goodbye from technical-solutions-while-u-wait!
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 65
Location: australia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Big 3 EU Foreign Policy (England, France, and Germany) Reply with quote

sudi wrote:

This is the part of your unintelligible argument that gets my blood boiling. How dare you suggest this? You're the one who wouldn't mind killing men, women, and children. You're the trigger-happy militia-man. Frankly, your way of thinking is quiet similar to that of the mullahs and their thugs. Are you an Islamist in disguise?

Also, to clarify my stance ... I believe we should give revolution a chance and do everything in our power to help it through. Military intervention may be unavoidable, but it has to be the last standing option.

And in the future, try and keep your bellicosity and loquacity down to a minimum. Your meaningless points are well understood; you don't have to keep repeating yourself over and over and over ...


If you don't want me to repeat the same thing over and over, then stop asking questions, or posting incorrect info. As for bellicosity, you're the one who decided to resort to personal insults when you couldn't find any fault in logic or facts. I have trimmed that from your quote. I could argue them, but I don't particularly care what names you call me.

Ok, as for me wanting to kill children etc. This is typical propaganda. Western forces do not deliberately target children etc. If any children get killed it is by accident, and a once-off cost. Note that children get killed in car crashes, but no-one advocates using public transport only, and banning cars etc. Also, it should be weighed up against the fact that the mullahs deliberately kill women and children.

As for "trigger-happy", I'm not advocating invading Switzerland. I believe in not being shy about using force when force is the most appropriate option. You are the one advocating sending women and children through a meat grinder, not me. An Islamist in disguise? As I said, I'm advocating EFFECTIVE policy to kick them out. The only policy you are advocating is getting women and children to line up to enter the meat grinder. The Islamists LOVE your policy. It WORKS - in their favour!!! It's no different from Jews lining up to go into gas chambers.

Revolution has been given a chance. And we found that unlike Georgia, the Mullahs have organized their security forces so that those on the frontline are willing to us automatic weapons. Even going so far as to import Arabs. It's very clever! And stacking these forums with people calling for Iranian children to face down automatic weapon fire is also very clever!

As for "loquacity", if you stop advocating the slaughter of children or raising other technically incorrect points that don't stand up to the light of day, there would be no need for the continuous cycle of correction.

I don't suppose in your next message you could actually provide some technical rebuttal, instead of passionately calling for mullahs to be given the opportunity to slaughter unarmed children?
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kerravon



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 65
Location: australia

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Big 3 EU Foreign Policy (England, France, and Germany) Reply with quote

sudi wrote:

And in the future, try and keep your bellicosity and loquacity down to a minimum. Your meaningless points are well understood; you don't have to keep repeating yourself over and over and over ...


Sorry, one thing I forgot to mention. The people I am really writing for are any Iranians in Iran who come across this forum.

I can just imagine what they would see. All these calls for them to face down automatic weapons. They know what happened to their brother and sister (murdered and raped respectively) when they "bravely" faced the automatic weapons. And, for understandable reasons, he's **** scared to queue up to an obvious meat-grinder.

He comes to this forum for inspiration, and what does he find? He's being told that no-one is coming to help him, he is expected to do it himself. And then he is depressed that he is a coward, because he is unwilling to suicide as the brave exiles insist he should.

Well, my sympathies are with him. And my message is to him:

You are not a coward for refusing to face automatic weapons in the hands of Islamofascists.

Furthermore, heavily armed western men will be in your area soon, and they will give the Islamofascists a taste of their own medicine.

Sit tight, stay safe. Please stay alive to rebuild your country, as it can't be done without decent people like you. You will be given an opportunity to try those Islamofascists, as soon as the automatic weapons are in the hands of civil society.

Can I ask you to remember who it was that liberated you, and in the future, try to remember the good things these liberators have done instead of dwelling on very old history. Countries usually get on better when that happens. Also, don't assume that the one-eyed view of history you were taught at school is even accurate. Although it is your choice to be neutral in the future, if you could actually be a western ally (like Poland), we would be ever so grateful. Thankyou for listening, and I'm sorry the western forces took so long to reach you. It's not because we didn't care.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kerravon, i know all of the sites that you mentioned. I have a lot of the new Iraqi Blogs listed in my blog's list of links..

I look at them every day and i know that the Iraqis are pro-american more than the Europeans ( europeans are anti-american).

I am also happy and glad that my country has sent troops to Iraq and i am proud of my Carabinieri and what they do there.

What i meant is that the current italian govt is not pro-american and pro-israel as it seems at the world leaders' eyes-

If it was pro-american, italian prime minister Frattini did not go to Egypt to say to Mubarak that Bush's plan for Mideast are not good, because this is what he said.

If it was pro-israel it did not bring the Israel's Security Fence issue at the U.N. and present a EU-backed resolution against the Fence !!

There is a group of quasi-extreme right youth which fill the cities' walls with anti-israeli writings , one of them stating: "No to the Israeli Apartheid Wall-Yes to the Palestinian Warriors".

This is what is written in some walls in my city,alongside many communist symbols which are everywhere in my city (here in Sardinia we are living in a climate of danger with communist "revolutionary" and "anti-imperialisr" groups which often threat the democratic institutions in my island)

Well, those far-rightist groups are members of Gianfranco Fini's party, the National Alliance..

I don't want to generalize, but if it is good that Italy has sent a lot of troops in Iraq that we take pride of, it is also good to notice that the current italian govt is much more pro-EU than pro-american.

I have voted for it.

Next time i will stay home.

They are similar to the italian left..


I wish to have a President as President Bush in Italy, but since we are in the French-influenced Euro zone, this is impossible..
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