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Another Islamic Democracy from Hell in the Works !
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salinescape
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanks Reply with quote

Spenta wrote:
Thank-you all for your excellent comments. I agree with many of the points you have all brought up.

I would like to just add one thing, that Images 2 brought up, that the European governments can be embarassed for their support of the genocidal Mullahs. Pulblic Opinin does matter, which is why everyone must work hard to embaress the greedy mercantilist Neo Colonialist European governments for their blind support of one of the world's worst violators of human rights and sponsors of terrorism.

Inform and influence public opinion in Europe, most Europeans will be horrified at the atrocities of the Mullahs, and they will be even more horrified to know that their governments are supporting it! But they need to know!

And one last thing, the Iranian opposition should not put all of its eggs in one basket, but start to lobby democratic presidential candidates as well! This is simply practical and wise.



Good points -

But do you really think the Europeans are oblivious to the support their governments are giving to the dictators? Or are they aware, but care little for the plight of the Iranian people.. Maybe you are right - maybe they don't realize that their govs are supporting terrorists..

Any advice in lobbying Dem candidates.. ?? Actually this would be a good tactic - because it could spark debate about Iran between the various parties - as a result getting closer to our goal... hopefully..
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Another Islamic Democracy from Hell in the Works ! Reply with quote

Spenta,

what is your feeling about Bush's trip or planned trip to England.. Also - what is your take on the demise of the regime.. Forced stepping down by international community, United States, revolution, referendum?? --
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stefania



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Kian,it's so sad that Bush is alone among the international community when it comes to Iranian issues..

I think that Michael Ledeen is doing a great work within the Bush's administration..
Next step: kick out the incompetent members of the state Dept.

I love Bush's foreign policy now that he is hearing more to the neocons rathen than to the Peres-loving Colin Powells..

I hope that John Kerry stops to praise the so-called NIAC and IAC "reformists"..

Let's hope that also the Democratic field stops prasing Khatami..
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salinescape
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefania wrote:
Dear Kian,it's so sad that Bush is alone among the international community when it comes to Iranian issues..

I think that Michael Ledeen is doing a great work within the Bush's administration..
Next step: kick out the incompetent members of the state Dept.

I love Bush's foreign policy now that he is hearing more to the neocons rathen than to the Peres-loving Colin Powells..

I hope that John Kerry stops to praise the so-called NIAC and IAC "reformists"..

Let's hope that also the Democratic field stops prasing Khatami..


The dems sure as hell need to quit all the talk about how we screwed up and need to get out of Iraq.. Why can't they actually talk about the future.. ways to bring the rest of the developing world up to speed - democratice - globalize - rid the world of fanatic dictators..

They need to quit all the talk about how Bush is a liar - it's so tiring..
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THE TRANSNATIONAL RADICAL PARTY IS WORKING HARD TO PROMOTE THE BUILDING OF A WORLD ORGANIZATION OF THE DEMOCRACIES AND FOR THE DEMOCRACY IN PLACE OF THIS INCOMPETENT U.N. OR TO REFORM THE U.N. WHERE ALL THE TIRANNIES,NOT MATTER WHAT POLITICAL IDEOLOGY, ARE KICKED OUT ...

The only way to have a better world body,is to create a World Organization of democracies.The dictatorial states,whoever they are and whavever their political ideology is,should not have voice in the international issues,since they are not leggitimate representatives of their govts.Was UN really created to protect peace and freedom?Since the its very beginning,the UN stated that its members should be the countries which represent their people.The famous statement "We the people" claim to represent all the people whom govts are members of the UN.But the majority of those countries are not either representatives of their own people since they were not freely elected.

THE RADICALS HAVE ALSO A RAPPRESENTATIVE TO NEW YORK.THEY HAVE AN OFFICE THERE.. IN A RECENT TRIP TO AMERICA, AND THERE WILL BE OTHER VISITS THERE, THE NEOCONS SAID THEY EMBRACE THIS PROJECT AND WILL TRY THEIR BEST TO ADVANCE THIS IDEA AND TURN IT INTO REALITY..
MICHAEL LEDEEN IS PART OF THIS TEAM..
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salinescape
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefania wrote:
THE TRANSNATIONAL RADICAL PARTY IS WORKING HARD TO PROMOTE THE BUILDING OF A WORLD ORGANIZATION OF THE DEMOCRACIES AND FOR THE DEMOCRACY IN PLACE OF THIS INCOMPETENT U.N. OR TO REFORM THE U.N. WHERE ALL THE TIRANNIES,NOT MATTER WHAT POLITICAL IDEOLOGY, ARE KICKED OUT ...

The only way to have a better world body,is to create a World Organization of democracies.The dictatorial states,whoever they are and whavever their political ideology is,should not have voice in the international issues,since they are not leggitimate representatives of their govts.Was UN really created to protect peace and freedom?Since the its very beginning,the UN stated that its members should be the countries which represent their people.The famous statement "We the people" claim to represent all the people whom govts are members of the UN.But the majority of those countries are not either representatives of their own people since they were not freely elected.

THE RADICALS HAVE ALSO A RAPPRESENTATIVE TO NEW YORK.THEY HAVE AN OFFICE THERE.. IN A RECENT TRIP TO AMERICA, AND THERE WILL BE OTHER VISITS THERE, THE NEOCONS SAID THEY EMBRACE THIS PROJECT AND WILL TRY THEIR BEST TO ADVANCE THIS IDEA AND TURN IT INTO REALITY..
MICHAEL LEDEEN IS PART OF THIS TEAM..


This is definitely resembles what the future of earth should be... a globalized coalition of democracies that truly protect human rights -

Good post..
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By time this could turn into reality..
This is the only Utopia for which it's necessary to fight ( by non-violent means)
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefania wrote:
By time this could turn into reality..
This is the only Utopia for which it's necessary to fight ( by non-violent means)


Of course there still remain dictators who know they are not wanted inthis new world.. they are trying to put up a fight... go got em BUSH!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:07 am    Post subject: Religious Mafia Fanatics Are Against Peace In This Planet Reply with quote

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/15/opinion/15TAHE.html?th

Same Tactics, New Target
By AMIR TAHERI

Published: November 15, 2003


ARIS

With the terrorist attack on Riyadh last week, which killed at least 17 people, the Saudis are finally experiencing the nightmare many other Arab and Muslim regimes have already lived through: the Islamist monster they created has turned against them.

The Shah of Iran played Islamists against the left and liberals for 20 years. He was overthrown by an Islamist-led revolution in 1979. President Anwar Sadat of Egypt promoted Islamists against pan-Arabists throughout the 1970's. Islamists murdered him in 1981. Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto of Pakistan gave up drinking and promoted Islamists in the army as a move against leftist and centrist opponents. In 1979 he was hanged by General Zia ul-Haq, the Islamist officer he had put in charge of the army.

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What is surprising in the case of the Saudis is that it has taken so long. And what is unknown is whether they will succeed in slaying the monster they helped to create.

The Saudis began to play the Islamist card in the early 1960's, mainly against the pan-Arabist movement led by President Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt. When Nasserism ceased to be a threat, in the 1970's, the Saudis used Islamism against the Communist menace from South Yemen and Oman. In 1975, an Islamist member of the royal family assassinated King Faisal, the architect of the kingdom's Islamist strategy. In the 1980's, the king's successors used Islamism to counter the message of the Islamic Revolution coming from Iran.

By the 1990's, the Islamist card was being played against the increasingly liberal aspirations of urban middle classes in the kingdom. The state created a religious police corps known as the mutawwa ("the enforcers") that terrorizes Westernized city-dwellers who might one day want a voice in government.

According to some estimates, the Saudis have spent $100 billion to promote Islamism of various forms at home and abroad in the past two decades. Part of that came from cash collections at mosques, bazaars, schools, hospitals and other public places throughout the kingdom. But the bulk of the money came from the Saudi state.

The first signs of tension in the Saudi state's alliance with Islamists appeared in the wake of the Gulf war of 1990. Islamists were outraged when American troops were welcomed in the kingdom as allies against Saddam Hussein. In 1995, King Fahd formed a Consultative Assembly, whose members he appointed. Although many liberals in Saudi Arabia dismissed the assembly as powerless and ineffective, to many Islamists it was a sign of Westernization.

Islamist resentment of the House of Al Saud has increased with Crown Prince Abdullah's timid but unmistakable efforts to broaden the dynasty's support. The crown prince, who has been in charge of the kingdom's day-to-day government since 1996, has tried to court pan-Arabists, liberals and even some openly secularist figures to balance Islamists. He has created a number of government councils — for economic planning, for example, and for social and youth affairs — which are filled with people that Islamists regard with suspicion.

Their suspicions were confirmed last year when Crown Prince Abdullah unveiled a plan for all Muslim states to establish relations with Israel in exchange for a Palestinian state. To Islamists, this was heresy: any policy short of the total elimination of Israel is a betrayal of their cause.

Undaunted by Islamist attacks, Crown Prince Abdullah has used every suitable occasion to undermine and isolate the Islamist movement. One act that especially antagonized Islamists was the crown prince's decision this year to meet with a group of Shiite leaders to discuss the rights of the Shiite minority as full citizens. Saudi Islamists regard Shiites, who form about 15 percent of the kingdom's population, as heretics. Crown Prince Abdullah, however, has given them seats in the Consultative Assembly and, for the first time, appointed Shiites to senior posts in the civil and diplomatic services.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:59 pm    Post subject: R Reply with quote

Quote:
Good points -

But do you really think the Europeans are oblivious to the support their governments are giving to the dictators? Or are they aware, but care little for the plight of the Iranian people.. Maybe you are right - maybe they don't realize that their govs are supporting terrorists..

Any advice in lobbying Dem candidates.. ?? Actually this would be a good tactic - because it could spark debate about Iran between the various parties - as a result getting closer to our goal... hopefully.. -Kian


Dear Kian,

Some Europeans know and don't care, but do they all know, I'm not sure. Western politics (and advertising) has taught us one lesson, that if you repeat something many times, people will start to repeat it thinking its their own idea and belief Razz So if there is a consistant campaign of public information in Europe, it will bear fruit.

What is a good campaign? Set My People free(RP), or Set Iran Free. Take out full page ads in top European dailies demanding that the EU cease trade and support for the IRI, one of the world's worst human rights violators. These ads are expenisve but you can take collections & donations for them, and there are plenty of Iranians with money to donate. I'll gladly donate to such a fund. This is hitting them where it hurts!

The Europeans may know their govt.s are supporting terrorism and not care. Listen before 9/11 they knew too, but after 9/11 and the press, many became angry and this has forced their govt.s to clean up the Islamist terrorism central areas in Hamburg, Paris & London. And the people themselves really dislike it now. The French ignored the plight of Arab & Algerian girls in the slums for years, but all the press after 9/11 has resulted in the French govt. finally passing laws that protect them. I think it may be possible to bring about a similar awakening and shift in public opinion & priorities re: Iran. And for that you need PR, and advertising. I believe Iranians worldwide, with money will fund it!

Advise on lobbying Dems?

Clark is the only nominee that I know of who absolutely hates the Mullahs, and did so all throughout the '90s. He was the only person under Clinton who opposed trade or even talks with the Mullahs, and he is Pro covert operations to overthrow the Mulahs as a national priority (read his book, he considers the IRI as the Number one threat). Hating the Mullahs is a Clark specialty. He's brilliant, he was a Rhodes scholar (philosophy at Oxford), and as Nato commander he managed to get the flighty Europeans to actually assist with Kosvo, Bosnia etc. He's great with diplomacy, respected by the EU, and is a tough no nesense foreign policy "take charge" "get the job done" kinda guy. He can really make multilateral action happening on Iran IMO! Hollywood is promoting him heavily, only because they think he has star appeal and they are desperate to beat Bush. But I don't think Clark can win, because he doesn't appeal to the traditional democratic base (he's military and voted Republican his whole life).

But the absolute, undeniable victory 2004 ticket IMO is Dean as Pres. & Clark as VP! This will be good for America & Iran, IMO. Dean will straighten out the domestic mess, and Clark will take care of the Mullahs. Clarke can also get a lot further with the Europeans than Powell ever did. The EU actually listened to Clark in the '90s!

Right now, Bush's chances for re-ection do not look good. Iranians are putting all their eggs in the Bush basket, which is a mistake. He should have gone after the Mullahs following Afghanistan, and he didn't. They should work all democratic candidates at this time!

What is the angle? The Democrats are depserate to redefine their foreign policy vision. They haven't had one in some time. They also need a way of showing & proving that they are relevant in the war on terror. Freeing Iran without military action, but through covert assistance, media campaign, human rights pressure etc. can be a major coup for a democratic president. If a democrat could bring down the IRI/Terror Central, a la the Soviet Union via a velvet revolution, then the Dems can have their own Reagan, LOL. It can also deliver the kind of foreign policy, 'war on terrorism' victory that could set the democrats up as foreign policy Pros for this and the next decade. Out of Saudi Arabia, North Korea & Iran, Iran is the most fashionable amongst Liberals, and the democrats can really build a foreign policy vision with Iran as the centerpiece and have the full support of their traditional base.

The most famous, highest profile, powerful senator supporter of the Brownback Iran Freedom Foundation Bill was NY's Chuck Shummer (Prominant democrat). My advise? Work the democratic Jewish lobby. They are powerful, have many resources, can really get things done, and are totally onboard with getting rid of the Mullahs, and they can do most of the work on behalf of the opposition. Northeast, Liberal/democratic Jewish lobby groups would be the best to contact for working 20004 Presidential democratic nominees. The Democrats can also really challenge Bush on Iran during the campaign, and use it to show they actually have a foreign policy vision, and are relevant in terms of the "war on Terror".

Thats my 2 cents.

Dear Cyrus,

Thank-you for posting the article. Another masterpiece from Taheri, except for I disagree with his comment about the Shah using Islamists to neoutralise the left! But thats just moi.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:30 am    Post subject: General Wesley Clark Reply with quote

-General Wesley Clark: Islamic Clerical Regime in Iran was highest threat against us from any state [AFP]
"But if we prioritized the threat against us from any state, surely Iran was at the top of the list, with ongoing chemical and biological warfare programs, clear nuclear aspirations and an organized global terrorist arm."
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