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[FREE IRAN Project] In The Spirit Of Cyrus The Great
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Azadeh_55
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 467
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 Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The people embraced Islam at first, until they saw the Arab's savagery, which was when the resistance began. |
Tabari's account of Iranian resistance starts during Omar's time, which is exactly when the invasion started. There was no "embracing" of Islam at the begining, in the middle, or at last. Read some history for a change.
http://www.golshan.com/pazhoohesh/pazheslam/iran/main.html
| Quote: | | 1. Iranians embraced Islam (At the beginning) because they saw much of Zoroastianism in it, and they saw that it was less corrupt (at that time). If the people of Iran had not embraced Islam, there is no way the arab invasion would have happened. At the time of the Invasions, Iran had a standing army of about 50,000. Estimated up to 500,000 in times of war. Now, imagine this. How would 20,000 (at the very most) arab raiders with no military training or proper equipment, have defeated 50,000 highly trained, highly mobile, highly organized, and highly equipped Iranian Soldiers? |
I don't know. How did 30 rebels take 1000 kids hostage in the land of the KGB a couple of months ago and end up killing 350 people? Isn't the Russian army and police amongst the best trained in the world? How were 30 nobody low-lives with no sophisticated tools or military training able to pull a fast one on the Russian army? The answer is simple. When it comes to violence, the most savage group usually wins. And you make it sound as if Iran was already a Muslim country when the Arabs invaded at the time of Omar. Where did you get that from? Either your knowledge of history is so poor or you are pretending like you are clueless.
| Quote: | | 7. Actually, the "Islamic Expansionists" were "spreading the word of God". and they were not the only religion doing this. What do you think the crusades were about? |
No, they said they were spreading the word of God. But there were lying. There was no God. All they were after was an ideology to organize and rally their troops so that they could invade as many lands as possible and take as much booty as they could. It is a lot easier to get people to kill others if you tell them it's for "spreading the word of God".
From what I read in history, the Crusades were Christians wars to get Palestine back from Muslim rule. But just out of curiosity, if one religion has started religious wars, does it make it OK for Islam to invade other countries under the lie that they are "spreading God's message"? It's like asking a murderer, "why'd you break into those girls apartment and kill them" and the guy says "hey, I'm not the only one who is killing people. Look at John in Cell block A. He's killed just many people as I have if not more". Is that any sort of logic?
| Quote: | 9. These verses only talk about Qurans being in Arabic. That is only common sense. They did not know other languages, so how could they make Qurans in other languages. Was the Avesta written in Chinese, and Greek and Indian versions in 1500 BCE?
10. Of course God revealed the Quran in Arabic to Arabic-speaking people so that they would understand it, what else would he reveal it in? Pig Latin? |
Oh where do I begin? The logic there is lacking on so many levels. You are speaking as if you seriously believe what is written in the Quran is actually from God. You say "they didn't know other languages". Gee wasn't the Quran supposedly for all of humanity and not just the Arabs? God should have thought of that before he created humans who spoke in a thousand different languages. The Quran distinctly says that if we had revealed the Quran to non-Arabs, they wouldn't have believed it's message (and would have supposedly been misguided and not guarded from evil and altimately ended up in hell). Why should a bunch of people be punished because of something they have no control over? It makes no sense that a real God would only send his supposedly final and eternal only to a group of people who only understand one langauge. Couldn't God just make it so that everyone understood the same language so that everyone could receives God's message? When you think about it, it is anything but common sense. In fact it makes no sense at all, does it? Of course it doesn't. It's because God did not "reveal the Quran" because there is no God. The whole thing was made up by Mohammad to gather followers.
Also, I find it very hard to believe that a real Zoroastrian would say things like "God revealed the Quran". If you believed that God really revealed the Quran, then why aren't you a Muslim? Oh that's right. You are one. You just lied to be a Zoroastrian because you think it will give you more credibility if a non-Muslim is defending Islam than if a Muslim is doing it. It's very very sad. 
| Quote: | | Azadeh, you did make several good points, but i'm not sure what you are pointing towards? That Islam is evil? |
I actually haven't really said much about the direct evils of Islam in this tread. I pointed towards those evils in other folders when I talked about the floggings, decapitations, wife-beatings, etc. If you want to talk about these things, I'd be happy to.
But my point is that religion is bad for our mental and physical health and as far as religions go, Islam is the worst. It's the age of stem-cell research and hydrogen fuel cells. Humans will walk on Mars in about 3 decades. We are making new organs from stem cells. We don't need religion to tell us not to steal and lie, and we certainly don't need a backward religion like Islam to guide us. Islam has turned us into an schizophrenic society and has divided our country into two camps: those who are pro-Islam and those who are pro-Iran. The pro-Islam camp blames Iranian kings for the invasion of our country. They say our ancestors embraced their invaders with open arms. They say that the systemic efforts to destory our Iranian identity is nothing and it's only natural and that we shouldn't talk about it or be upset because the French did the same to the British. They say no problem with 50% of language being polluted with foreign words. They resort to all sorts of weird sad tactics and distortion to spread Islamic propaganda. Some of them even pretend to Zoroastrian when defending Islam (although sometimes it slips their tongue and they forget they were pretending to be Zoraostrian and accidentally say things like "God revealed the Quran"). 
| Quote: | | Let me tell you something. Every religion grows up, like a person, with age. Christianity is 2000 years old, Islam is 1400 years old. Christianity was just as savage and just as brutal as Islam when it was 1400 years old. Have you ever read into the details of the Spanish Inquisition? Nothing the Arabs, Alexander, or even Genkhis Khan ever did was that bloody. What I'm trying to get at, is that each religion needs time to evolve. Islam 600 years from now, won't be the same thing. My bet is that it will be a lot more humane. |
Well let me tell you something. I don't have 600 years to wait for Islam to grow up. I want to see my children and my grandchildren grow up in a world when they won't live with the possibility of getting flogged or decapitated or stoned or executed or have their eyes plucked out or have acid thrown in their face because of what some religious book said 14 centuries ago or because of what some dirty mullahs interperts some Quranic passage to mean or because of what some Islamic vigilantee thinks some hadith means. I don't want my children to grow up in a world where they would even hear the word stoning or decapitation. Not even in books or movies. You remind me of IR reformists who up until a few years ago used to say that we should give the Islamic regime more time to evolve and become more humane. More time? Isn't 1400 years of violence, death, destruction, and suffering enough? Now you want us to wait another 600 years? No, enough is enough. We have already waited too long to tell the truth about Islam. We don't need Islam. Not the current version, not a more humane version, not a less humane version.
Here is my post on why we should use the worst "Persian" as often as we can:
| Quote: | | In English, it is called Persian and not Farsi, just as in English it is called German and not Deutch, it is called Spanish and not Spanol, it is called French and not Francis. Now on the surface this may sound like a very trivial thing to even mention but it is very important. You see, we have made the word Persian virtually disappear from the English language. It is now called "Iran" instead of "Persia", it is called "Farsi" instead of "Persian". Do we really have to wonder why some Western journalists have opted for using the insulting term of "The Gulf" or "Arabian Gulf" instead of "The Persian Gulf". This is our own fault. We have made the word "Persian" disappear from the English language. Most Americans don't even know what Persian is. They think it's a type of carpet or cat. And most of it is our own fault. Every time we have the opportunity to remind people of the word "Persian", we consciously don't use it. The result is that the word Persian drops from people's mind and their vocabulary and before you know it, you will hear the word "The Gulf" or even worst "Arabian Gulf" in your 6 O'clock news. So please refrain from using the word "Farsi" when speaking or writing English. In English, it is called Persian. Thank you for your consideration. |
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Eternal1
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Sourena wrote: |
The people embraced Islam at first, until they saw the Arab's savagery, which was when the resistance began. |
History does repeat itself, and this sentence also sums up the revolution of '79 in many ways, i.e. embracing Khomeini only to realise too late what he actually was.
So what are you defending then?
What can possibly be deemed good/positive about Islam if this is what Islam has brought to Iran.
| Quote: | | 2. Actually I did not know many of those points, thank you for enlightening me. However, I disagree, I don't think they will be able to replace the culture, the Iranian people won't stand for it. |
What will Iranians not stand for?
Is it the inherent consequence of Submission (Islam). If so, I agree. It seems Iranians do not want to 'submit' their cultural Integrity and History, which Islam undoubtedly demands.
So why defend Islam then?
| Quote: | | That Islam is evil? |
No. But was/is it an appropriate/necessary/progressive philosophy for Iranians?
Zoroastrianism is one of the oldest religions. The jewish cabalistic tradition is known to be quite a powerful and profound body of wisdom which is very difficult to access, unless you are an initiate.
Forget about the stuff that Madonna might be learning.
Zoroastrianism as a precursor to judaism influenced the jews, who borrowed much of the wisdom from Iranians.
So although there are many relevant criticisms of this religion, the depth of Wisdom and knowledge it once held should at least be recognised, and the intimate connection between Zoroastrianism and Iranians should not be discarded so easily.
Although, I do not think it could survive as a modern day philosophy, but from a historical perspective it is important.
Islam in Iranian culture is equivalent to wiping out several thousand years of progress and starting all over again. In actual fact it seems that this has happened in many ways, especially when we take Kourosh's achievements into account.
| Quote: | | Let me tell you something. Every religion grows up, like a person, with age. Christianity is 2000 years old, Islam is 1400 years old. Christianity was just as savage and just as brutal as Islam when it was 1400 years old. Have you ever read into the details of the Spanish Inquisition? Nothing the Arabs, Alexander, or even Genkhis Khan ever did was that bloody. What I'm trying to get at, is that each religion needs time to evolve. Islam 600 years from now, won't be the same thing. My bet is that it will be a lot more humane. |
Possibly for many other nations Islam may very well have had something to offer...but to Iranians, it just isn't so.
25 years is painful enough, let alone 600 years.
It is obvious that when you talk of Humanity, progress, application of intelligence and tolerance, that Islam struggles to find any form of compatibility with these ideals. In reality in tramples them out, why, because you have to 'submit',... Your freedom, your intelligence and when it comes to spreading the word of what is unarguably an arabic moon god, compassion and mercy also.
Also, your point about the crusades is correct. Attrocities have always been committed in the name of God.
But their is an important difference between Christianity and Islam.
Both religions are comparable in terms of the misery and ignorance they have forced on the masses when we consider their histories.
But the key point that is guaranteed to be omitted when this issue is raised relates to the prophets of these religions.
Consider Jesus.
This was the man who was against violence, and would readily turn the other cheek if attacked. Even when he was about to be arrested before being crucified, he did not allow his diciples to fight for him.
When do we ever here of Jesus spilling blood. When do we here of Jesus' numerous wives and God's interest in Jesus love life?
When do we here Jesus speak so agressively with regard to people of different faiths?
In actual fact, their was no structured body of Jesus' philosophy in his life time. Remember, christianity as a faith was created by men following Jesus' death.
If the crusaders spilt blood in the name of Jesus, it would be virtually impossible for them to justify it. (forget the old testament here, which is comparable to the Q'ran. Moses' God was pretty serious).
With Mohammed, the bandit, the paedophile, the polygamist and the politician you would have no problem justifying killing in his name and the name of Islam. Islam followed its bloody, hegemonic course with the intention of Mohammed.
The legacy of Islam is a direct result of the way of life and ambitions of Mohammed.
Whereas with Jesus, the legacy of christianity has a barely tenuous connection with his life and aspirations. It is simply not comparable to Islam in this sense.
Which leaves me with my final point.
If harm comes to me, I would normally do my best to avoid it, and if possible I would rid myself of the cause.
Again I revert to the self destructive nature of the Iranian Pyche, which, I suppose, may explain why so many Iranians are still willing the defend a religion that has had such a degenerative effect on the cultural, historical, spiritual and economical state of Iranian life. |
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Liberty Now !
Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 521
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:23 pm Post subject: submission? |
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9 kare! honey, you left out jubmission to Jihad and torture.
the offer is still open hizbollah babes:
Submit to me!
And I promise NOT to torture you like this guy allah, even if you're really bad!
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Sourena
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Azadeh, when I said "God Reveled the Qoran" I had just copied and pasted something from your post.
"Amazingly, it says 9 times (that I know of) that "we" (meaning Allah but we all know that God doesn't exist and it is Mohammad himself who is speaking) revealed the Quran in Arabic to Arabic-speaking people so that they would understand it, (and apprently "ward off evil")."
So you see, it was not my words, I was just trying to answer your question using your own words.
Now as for Tabari, Here is a quote from his biography:
"There lived on one of [Baghdad's] suburbs an old man of Turkish blood with sparse beard and good physique. One evening, a stately procession, followed by a large retinue, stopped at his humble cottage. Soon after the highest dignitary of the state, the Grand Vizier of the Abbasid Caliphate was brought into the presence of the old man, who was absorbed in his study.
This old man was Tabari, one of the greatest historians of Islam. The Caliph had offered him a handsome pension and sent costly presents in recognition of his contribution to Islamic learning. ... Muhammad Ibni Jarir Abu Jafar Al-Tabari (838-923 AD), was one of [Islamic Scholars] and is today recognized as the father of Islamic History... Thus Abu Jafar Al-Tabari, known as `Livy of Arabs' and the father of Islamic History is one of the greatest historians of the Mediaeval times who paved the way for the gigantic growth of Muslim Historiography in the world. "
So this Tabari was not even Iranian, but I'm going to put that aside. This man was born 200 years after the Arabian Invasions. How did he know what exactly happened?
The same thing happens all the time with historians. Historians tend to exaggerate. Herodutos said that Xerxes invaded Greece with an army of 5 million men. A more modern and reasonable estimate is 500,000. Herodotus was born a couple centuries after the Persian wars, so how could he know how many troops Xerxes had?
That is the dilemma of History. You can never prove ANYTHING in history. I can't prove Herodotus or Tabari wrong. Maybe Xerxes had an army of 5 million, I don't know, I CAN'T ever know for sure, (unless you want to invent a time machine). There is no such thing as historical fact, because it cannot be proved. In fact, YOU should read history for a change. A good historian knows not to base his opinion on only one source. You must look at what several people said, and try to hypothesize what actually happened. THAT is history.
Your Russia example has nothing to do with what i said. The rebels were not an army fighting another, they were not fighting on an open plain riding on horses and holding swords. This is a bad analogy. Maybe you should read some history. The savage group does not win. If that was so, Rome would not have conquered all of Gaul, Britain and Germania, and the Arabs invasions would not have been stopped in Spain. What gave you the idea that i said Iran was already an arab country at the time of Omar? It seems also that my knowledge of history, and what history actually IS, are much higher than yours.
You twist my words. when did i say it would make it OK for the muslims? I was saying that it is not only Islam that had these savage acts.
Actually if you consider all religions, the Qoran was kind of only for the Arabs. If you follow all monotheistic religions, God sent many different messengers to different parts of the world, to educate their people. It was Buddha for East Asia, Zoroaster for Iran, Jesus for Christians, Moses for the Jews, and Muhammad for the arabs. And now you say there is no god? Wow, an Iranian Atheist, never thought i would meet one of you.
I accept your explanation for the use of the word "Persian", and will follow it accordingly.
Have you ever heard that phrase : "Life is Cruel". You don't want to wait 600 years? well boo hoo. in that case, I don't want to wait 10 years to get a PhD, I want it now.
Eternal1:
I am not "defending Islam". I am a historian. I am trying to set the record straight. If someone here was saying that Columbus was the first european to find north america, I would just as strongly argue that the vikings had found north america centuries before. Also, this is a Discussion Forum, and I like historical discussion. And in order for me to argue with someone, i have to take up a contrary position.
Azadeh: I really don't care if you agree with what i say. I don't care if you believe what I say. I'm going to say it nevertheless. That is a concept called "Free Speach". I research different views about what happened in the past and construct my own view according to what i think is right. We can argue about this all day, but neither of us can prove anything about the past. That is what historians do. |
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Azadeh_55
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 467
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Let's just cut to the chase. I wrote:
| Quote: | | Well let me tell you something. I don't have 600 years to wait for Islam to grow up. I want to see my children and my grandchildren grow up in a world when they won't live with the possibility of getting flogged or decapitated or stoned or executed or have their eyes plucked out or have acid thrown in their face because of what some religious book said 14 centuries ago or because of what some dirty mullahs interperts some Quranic passage to mean or because of what some Islamic vigilantee thinks some hadith means. I don't want my children to grow up in a world where they would even hear the word stoning or decapitation. Not even in books or movies. You remind me of IR reformists who up until a few years ago used to say that we should give the Islamic regime more time to evolve and become more humane. More time? Isn't 1400 years of violence, death, destruction, and suffering enough? Now you want us to wait another 600 years? No, enough is enough. We have already waited too long to tell the truth about Islam. We don't need Islam. Not the current version, not a more humane version, not a less humane version. |
And you replied:
| Quote: | | Have you ever heard that phrase : "Life is Cruel". You don't want to wait 600 years? well boo hoo. in that case, I don't want to wait 10 years to get a PhD, I want it now. |
Wow! So that's your answer to why we can't stop stoning and decapitations right this mintue? "Boo hoo"? "Life is cruel"? Well I just love it when defenders of Islam show their true colous. Aren't you even bothered knowing that somewhere in the world, human beings are getting their eyes plucked out and their limbs cut off? Aren't you outraged? Doesn't it just make your blood boil? How can you just shrug it off like that and say "boo hoo, life is cruel"? Most people show some type of emotion when they hear about a pupppy getting run over by a car. I am talking about human beings getting stoned, decapitated, and having their eyes plucked out of their sockets by other human beings who think they are doing God's works! How can you even say that? It is disgusting. Well, you are finally showing your true colours. Go ahead and tell that to the people whose children were stoned, decapitataed, tortured, flogged, executed, or had their eyes plucked out! Look into the face of guy who got his right arm and his left foot cut off by the order of an Islamic fatwa for being an "enemy of God and the prophet" and tell him "boo hoo, life is cruel. I had to wait 10 years to get a PhD so you will have to wait 600 years before you can safely assume no one will cut off your arms and legs". Well I have news for you. We don't really need Islam and we will get rid of it. We will stop the executions and the decapitations and the stoning and the floggings and the eye-gougings, and other forms of barbarity as soon as get rid of the Islamic regime along with this Islamic mentality. And yes we will live in a safe world where our children and grandchildren don't have to live under the threat of being flogged, stoned, or have their eyes plucked out or their limbs cut off. You can defend this barbarism for as long as you want. It's a losing battle for you because you can't win the hearts and minds of Iranians with your mentality. There is no timeline on stopping this madness and regaining our sanity. Iranians are already leaving Islam by the thousands. Forget about the families of the people who were maimed and executed, everyone has a cousin or a neighbour who was flogged or harassed at least once. So keep saying things like that. It never hurts to get someone who defends Islam show their true colours. Islamists try to hide under the banner of "religion of peace". Well your kind is fooling no one. I guess your real mentality is hard to keep a lid on. At some point it just spills over. And by the way, this is exactly what I meant when I said "people like you" in one of my last posts; heartlesss cruel people who defend the barbarities of Islam and say "boo hoo" to the call of eradicating stonings and decapitations. You disgust me.
And by the way, getting a PhD has nothing to do with stopping floggings and decapitations. The barbarism must stop right this mintue! The sancitity of human life is not a university degree.
| Quote: | | Azadeh: I really don't care if you agree with what i say. I don't care if you believe what I say. I'm going to say it nevertheless. That is a concept called "Free Speach". |
No no no. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for free speech. I think you should say more things like you did above. Show your true colours. I am dying to see more posts like that last one.
| Quote: | | Wow, an Iranian Atheist, never thought i would meet one of you. |
And I never thought I would meet an Iranian who would say actually "boo hoo" on the subject of cutting off limbs and taking out eyes. I knew your kind existed, but never thought you'd have the audacity to say these things in public forums. |
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Sourena
Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| I tire of this petty nonesense. Say what you want. You twist my words to say something i did not. When you want to have a real intelectual comment, let me know. |
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Azadeh_55
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 467
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| No. Don't stop now. Keep saying more of the same stuff you said before. You know... boo hoo? Life is cruel? You were doing so well. |
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