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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clarkie said

Quote:
Remember that many Britons, such as myself, are utterly disgusted with the Guardian. It has the lowest readership of any major newspaer, tabloid or boradsheet, for a reason. The people of Britain have not yet sold their souls to liberalism and not all agree with the Guardian. I even supported Bush to win the American election. Not all Britons seek to meddle abroad in order to promote their own twisted left wing creed. It is unfortunate that the Guardian gives this impression.


We have the same situation here. The mainstream media has truely discredited itself.

Those of us living in the red states are determined to take the country back from the crazies. Many of us consider ourselves classic liberals which means trying to optimize human freedom and prosperity. Those passing as liberals now days are often closer to fascists who want to control every aspect of other people's lives.
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Omidvaur



Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:18 am    Post subject: Those of us living in the red states are determined to take Reply with quote

Please clarify. Are you referring to the republicans as crazy?
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Omidvaur asked

Quote:
Please clarify. Are you referring to the republicans as crazy?


I'm not talking about a political party specifically but refer to those people who don't respect our traditional American values. This topic was brought up in reference to some British people who were trying to interfere in our elections. Thy apparently thought they were smarter than the American electorate and had to inform us how to vote.

The danger to our democracy are those folks who don't trust the people to debate and decide issues such as gay marriage but resort to legislation from the bench. This is a dangerous precident which will directly undermine our democracy. A excellent example is the so called ACLU which is waging a war to destroy Christianity and American culture in general through the courts without letting the people decide the issues for themselves.
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The danger to our democracy are those folks who don't trust the people to debate and decide issues such as gay marriage but resort to legislation from the bench.


And the ammendment to the constitution to ban gay marriage is not disallowing people debate on the subject and ruling from the bench? Duh ...

PS. American values are not homophobia and mysogyny, altho those are the values of some intolerant and bigotted Americans!! The ACLU is not waging a war against Christianity but simply fighting the abuses of religion and religious fundementalism!

Signed
Blue State, Pro Gay Rights, Secular, Liberal, Progressive and Green Feminist American!
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amerocan Visitor,

I am a big fan of President Bush and its foreign and economic policy

But i disagree with you about issues like civil-unions ( although i don't approve gay marriage ) , abortion rights , etc..

However, I think that the ACLU is a corrupt and idiot organization who claims to fight for "secular" struggles but then flirts with pro-Mullahs lobbies in the US

America is a red state now and that is , i think, good news for the civil rights.

Bush is much more secular then many European leaders.

The majority of the Iranian-Americans HAVE VOTED FOR BUSH , because they CARE FIRST AND FOREMOST ABOUT THEIR COUNTRY than the Bush's domestic policies.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never seen any Liberal American Leftist to take to the streets to protest against the violations of the women's rights in the Islamic countries.

A true feminist is Donna Hughes.
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spenta said,

Quote:
And the ammendment to the constitution to ban gay marriage is not disallowing people debate on the subject and ruling from the bench? Duh ...


Judges who legislate from the bench bypass the will of the people and do not submit their opinions to a vote. Just because you agree with them doesn't make the prosess any more democratic. Many of these people are appointed for life and are supposed to uphold the law, not to make it.

The only reason people are voting for a constitutional amendment is because the judges are not following the constitution as it is now written. If you notice, in many states the amendments to ban gay marriage won overwhelmingly with support from both Democrats and Republicans.

Quote:
PS. American values are not homophobia and mysogyny, altho those are the values of some intolerant and bigotted Americans!! The ACLU is not waging a war against Christianity but simply fighting the abuses of religion and religious fundementalism!


Would you please back up your accusations with facts?
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
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Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry to jump in but who're the aclu? no idea across the pond...
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reza

ACLU= American Civil Liberties Union

Since these guys think unions are the anti-christ and equality is the same as apostacy, they hate it. But then again this how it goes with the religious zealots programmed and brainwashed by the Corporate elite, be they Islamists, Zionist or Christian fundementalist it makes no difference, its the same old same old!

American Visitor

Quote:
Judges who legislate from the bench bypass the will of the people and do not submit their opinions to a vote. Just because you agree with them doesn't make the prosess any more democratic. Many of these people are appointed for life and are supposed to uphold the law, not to make it.

The only reason people are voting for a constitutional amendment is because the judges are not following the constitution as it is now written. If you notice, in many states the amendments to ban gay marriage won overwhelmingly with support from both Democrats and Republicans.


Supreme Court judges ruling in favor of your beliefs is still 'ruling from the bench' which you claim to oppose, but apparently the obvious contradiction is lost on you. I'm amazed that you can't see the hypocracy in what you claim, but self analysis is the worst sin in Bush's eyes, so I can see that it is perhaps an offensive practice for you. The rest of us however remain observant, and naturally can see these major holes in your logic system.

Quote:

Quote
PS. American values are not homophobia and mysogyny, altho those are the values of some intolerant and bigotted Americans!! The ACLU is not waging a war against Christianity but simply fighting the abuses of religion and religious fundementalism!


Would you please back up your accusations with facts?


Oh excuse me, I forgot that bigotry and mysogyny are American values Laughing

Get real!

American values are equality for all, that includes aetheists, gays, feminsits, pro-choice people and the rest of those you disagree with. Based on American principals and values, equality is described as a self evident truth, therefore no evidence is necessary. It might be a good idea for you to learn the history of your own country instead of the religious fundementalist brainwashing programmed by the coporate elite. If all are equal under the law, then how come heterosexual men and women are free to get married but homesexual men and women can't? The opposition to gay marriage is purely a religious fundementalist value and not a democratic one based on equality.

The current Christian fundementalist claims of a Christian ban on abortion are only supported by an 18th century Vatican Council in terms of Christian history. In other words this was a ban that a committee of clerics came up with, similar committees had decided the most insane things imaginable including burning people at the stake for healing with herbs, the basis for modern medicine, yet that doesn't mean we should burn all doctors and forbid medicine today! Numerous Christian writings argue that menstrual pain is a result of god's punishment of Eve and ditto childbearing pain, should we then jail any woman taking Advil for menstrual cramps and ban epidurals? So using yet another Vatican Council's ruling by clerics is not American values, America is not ruled by the Vatican, nor was it founded on the principals created by Vatican Councils! Additionally the majority of the Bill of Rights is in direct contradiction to many different vatican Council rulings throughout the ages!

So in conclusion, learn American history, try some self examination and spare me the coporate elite sponsored propoganda, I am immune to religious fundementalist programming. I took the best vaccination there is, its called I survived Islamic fundementalism.

Stefania

Bush won with a margin of 3 million votes out of a nation with a population of 293,027,571, that doesn't mean that America is a red state nation. Basic Math! Try it sometime, as a break from the usual dogma and propoganda, you might find it refreshing and interesting.

I forgot to add

Card carrying member of the ACLU, Blue State, Pro Gay Rights, Secular, Liberal, Progressive and Green Feminist American!
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spenta said,

Quote:
Since these guys think unions are the anti-christ and equality is the same as apostacy, they hate it. But then again this how it goes with the religious zealots programmed and brainwashed by the Corporate elite, be they Islamists, Zionist or Christian fundementalist it makes no difference, its the same old same old!


Would you get real? I asked you for evidence to support your rants. This is just more rants.


Quote:
Supreme Court judges ruling in favor of your beliefs is still 'ruling from the bench' which you claim to oppose, but apparently the obvious contradiction is lost on you. I'm amazed that you can't see the hypocracy in what you claim, but self analysis is the worst sin in Bush's eyes, so I can see that it is perhaps an offensive practice for you. The rest of us however remain observant, and naturally can see these major holes in your logic system
.

Once again you are ranting without supporting your position. I said supreme court justices or any other judges legislating from the bench is a problem. Do you agree or not? It doesn't matter whether we like their rulings or not, they are obligated to follow the law for democracy to function. As to my logic I don't claim to have perfect knowledge, I'm interested to see your opinions but hopefully backed by facts.

Quote:
Oh excuse me, I forgot that bigotry and mysogyny are American values


More ranting with no evidence. You claim I'm homophobic, please prove it. If I'm a misogynist, please offer the evidence. Otherwise, I'd say you are just blowing off steam.

Quote:
American values are equality for all, that includes aetheists, gays, feminsits, pro-choice people and the rest of those you disagree with. Based on American principals and values, equality is described as a self evident truth, therefore no evidence is necessary. It might be a good idea for you to learn the history of your own country instead of the religious fundementalist brainwashing programmed by the coporate elite. If all are equal under the law, then how come heterosexual men and women are free to get married but homesexual men and women can't? The opposition to gay marriage is purely a religious fundementalist value and not a democratic one based on equality


You are making claims once again without supporting your postion. Equality under the law means people are always judged fairly according to the laws of the land, no one gets special treatment in court. If a rich man and a poor man go to court each is treated equally. What does that have to do with gay marriage?

Quote:
The current Christian fundementalist claims of a Christian ban on abortion are only supported by an 18th century Vatican Council in terms of Christian history. In other words this was a ban that a committee of clerics came up with, similar committees had decided the most insane things imaginable including burning people at the stake for healing with herbs, the basis for modern medicine, yet that doesn't mean we should burn all doctors and forbid medicine today! Numerous Christian writings argue that menstrual pain is a result of god's punishment of Eve and ditto childbearing pain, should we then jail any woman taking Advil for menstrual cramps and ban epidurals? So using yet another Vatican Council's ruling by clerics is not American values, America is not ruled by the Vatican, nor was it founded on the principals created by Vatican Councils! Additionally the majority of the Bill of Rights is in direct contradiction to many different vatican Council rulings throughout the ages!


There is a lot of ranting going on here so lets see if we can find some points to discuss.

Abortion. This is one which has been screwed up by the courts rather than letting the people debate the issue and decide for themselves. One reason it is still such a contentious issue is that people have not had a good discussion on it.

So far as I can tell, you either don't believe a fetus is a little human being or you don't believe human life is sacred. Many of us disagree with you. Abortion is not such an easy issue as you try to make it out.

Is human life sacred or not. If not why complain if the Mullahs kill 13 year olds girls? Have you ever seen an ultrasound of a fully formed fetus with it's little fingers and toes and known it was going to be killed for no other reason than that it was inconvenient? I have and it is a very sobering event. What about partial birth abortion where a full term healthy baby is brought out into the birth canal and the brain is sucked out through the foramen magnum without anesthesia. Doesn't this bother you just a little bit?

What about euthanasia? Do you support that? Eugenics sounds like a good thing and is perfectly logical. It is based on sound well established scientific principles. What about killing defectives? If what I have read recently is correct, Holland is there already. Germany arrived at that point about 50 years ago and people didn't seem to have much trouble with it. The rational was they were destroying "lives not worth living." What is your opinion on this issue? Do you reject those Christian fundamentalists who object to those killings? Many people in Germany didn't seem to mind when mentally retarded people and folks with psychiatric illness were killed. Why worry about them, their lives weren't important?

When they decided Jews and gypsies weren't acceptable and claimed they were enemies of the people and began to destroy them, only a few people complained. Human life by then had lost its value. It was largely those Christians from America who you despise so much who gave their lives to fight this menace.

So far as the bill of rights, I fail to read in my history books that the ACLU had anything to do with them. However I do understand most of the framers of the constitution were Christians whom you so loath. Interesting how this country developed the constitution which still stands as a beacon of hope and freedom without the ACLU.

Reza asked,

Quote:
sorry to jump in but who're the aclu? no idea across the pond...


This is starting to become interesting.

The ACLU is an organization which at one time probably actually stood for the protection of human rights but by spenta's own admission has turned into an antiChristian organization. Among it's finer accomplishments recently was to sue the military to ban any support for the boy scouts who are incidentally not a branch of any church, sue the city of Los Angeles to remove a tiny cross which was on their city emblem in honor of the Spanish heritage, and sueing San Diego or one of the suburbs because they were allowing the boy scouts to use one of their buildings for meetings. In case you didn't know, those boy scouts are a real menace to our democracy.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I ask you all something ? What has this to do with the issue Iran ?

Why don't you all stop talking american domestic policies and rather focus on the struggle for Freedom in Iran ?
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefania said

Quote:
Can I ask you all something ? What has this to do with the issue Iran ?

Why don't you all stop talking american domestic policies and rather focus on the struggle for Freedom in Iran ?


Good point.
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 1829

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefania you've spammed this board with so many off subject posts that you've even been warned by the Admin, so you are not in a position to lecture others. American Visitor started this, and because he can't argue the points he is now trying to end it. I came along long after you guys had started this, now in an attempt to silence me, you pretend this is off subject. If its off subject why did you start and continue it before I even joined in? Obviously only those who disagree with you are off subject! Rolling Eyes


Quote:
Once again you are ranting without supporting your position. I said supreme court justices or any other judges legislating from the bench is a problem. Do you agree or not?


You wrote that you support a consitutional ammendment banning gay marraiage as a way of stopping judges from legislating. In other words you want judges to rule in favor of your beliefs. Once again, if you can't see your own contradictions I can't help you. You want judges to rule in favor of your beliefs, and you call that people sorting it out Laughing


Quote:
More ranting with no evidence. You claim I'm homophobic, please prove it. If I'm a misogynist, please offer the evidence. Otherwise, I'd say you are just blowing off steam.


I wrote that Mysogyny and bigotry are not Amercian values in response to you, in turn you demanded prove it, and I did! Now you pretend it never happened, you spin a mighty long spin of yarn, but noone is buying it, except for maybve Stefania :LOL:

Quote:
You are making claims once again without supporting your postion. Equality under the law means people are always judged fairly according to the laws of the land, no one gets special treatment in court. If a rich man and a poor man go to court each is treated equally. What does that have to do with gay marriage


Once again, if all are equal under he law, how come a judge can marry a heterosexual man and woman, but not a homosexual man and woman. Is that a judge or the law treating all equally? Answer this question. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Is human life sacred or not.


If human life is sacred, are you anti Capital punishment or just anti a woman's right to choose? And if you are anti Capital punishment, are you just as active in fighting capital punishment and war as you are fighting a woman's right to choose? And if human life is sacred, can we then read you denouncing Bush, for his support of Capital punishment and war?

Quote:
However I do understand most of the framers of the constitution were Christians whom you so loath. Interesting how this country developed the constitution which still stands as a beacon of hope and freedom without the ACLU.


Why do you resort to lies about me? Present me with a single quote in which I wrote that I loath Christians? Find me this quote, because it does not exist. When people get desperate like you, they resort to lying and slander!

Quote:
The ACLU is an organization which at one time probably actually stood for the protection of human rights but by spenta's own admission has turned into an antiChristian organization.


More lies. You either have serious trouble comprehending what you read, or resort to lies and fabrications in order to debate. You must have no confidence in the inherent truth, justice, fairness or relevance of your own beliefs for resorting to lies and fabrications. I never described the ACLU as anti Christian. This is precisely what I wrote to Reza:

Quote:
ACLU= American Civil Liberties Union

Since these guys think unions are the anti-christ and equality is the same as apostacy, they hate it.


I wrote that 'these guys' think ACLU is anti Christ not me, 'you guys think' does not mean, 'I think'! Like I said, you either have serious trouble comprehending English, or you just lie and fabricate as part of debating! Either way, you discredit yourself more than me.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not referred to you only, spenta.

It's referred to all of us ( included American Visitor and me too ) ..

It'd be better not to waste precious time by debating useless issues.

Are we going to help the Iranians free themselves? If so , how is that we think that by talking about not important issues like these we're going to help the Iranian people?
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reza



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 466
Location: England

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

american visitor said -

Quote:
The ACLU is an organization which at one time probably actually stood for the protection of human rights but by spenta's own admission has turned into an antiChristian organization. Among it's finer accomplishments recently was to sue the military to ban any support for the boy scouts who are incidentally not a branch of any church, sue the city of Los Angeles to remove a tiny cross which was on their city emblem in honor of the Spanish heritage, and sueing San Diego or one of the suburbs because they were allowing the boy scouts to use one of their buildings for meetings. In case you didn't know, those boy scouts are a real menace to our democracy.


spenta said -

Quote:
ACLU= American Civil Liberties Union

Since these guys think unions are the anti-christ and equality is the same as apostacy, they hate it. But then again this how it goes with the religious zealots programmed and brainwashed by the Corporate elite, be they Islamists, Zionist or Christian fundementalist it makes no difference, its the same old same old!


I love politics Laughing . where did impartiality go? But thanks o both of you for the info.

Quote:
how come heterosexual men and women are free to get married but homesexual men and women can't


Heterosexual couples are allowed to be married because MARRIAGE was a ceremony created to join a man and a woman. It is simple logic, you may as well ask why a toaster isnt allowed to roast a chicken. Im not against gat people celebrating theirr union in their own way - civil partnership for instance. But the reason people dislike gay marriage is because it is a contradiction in terms.

and stefania, if you want to debate on the real issue then set us an example and go and bother someone else
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