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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Posts: 4250
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And in the ME we have the reverse we have Christians trying to convert Muslims, who cares, really?


Pls don't tell lies.

The Middle Eastern Christians are fleeing or hiding because they're the main target of the extremists !
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 1829

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However on this issue we simply disagree. That is completely legitimate in a free country.


Actually I agree with you on this. We definately disagree on this subject.

Quote:
Now I'm being told I don't know the history and culture of my own country or I'd know those fundamentalist Christians couldn't build a country like the US.


That is not what I wrote, I suggest you re-read it, since you are apparently assuming presecution of a kind which never took place. I can see your dire need for persecution, however I have not been persecuting you, nor were my comments designed to do so, I suggest you take a deep breath and read my comments again without extreme emotional reaction or projecting fantasies onto what I write.

I simply presented my point of view, its best not to project all this additional stuff onto what I write.

Also, Christian Fundementalists did not create this country.

Once again, for further clarification, this is what I wrote:

Quote:


PS. The US was not founded on Judeo Christian principals. It was founded on principals of democracy or else it would have been like Europe at the time of its founding with laws of religion, church and royalty ruling over all, instead of democracy! This country was founded on principals of democracy, going back to the Greeks, which predates Christianity. Also, the writings of Votaire and other French philopshers on democracy (definately not Christian), and the Magna Carta were earlier influences, and the magna Carta cited the example of Persian Kings i.e. Cyrus the Great. The Founding fathers were Free Masons, and even a Rosecrucian, they dabbled in ancient knowledge systesm that were kept secretive for fear of persecution by the church as heresy, they had nothing in common with right wing Christian zealots of today.

Much of what the world was dealing with after the Rennassaince had to do with the rebirth of classical Greece after the thousand year sleep of the dark ages and the oppresive rule of the church. The 'Rebirth' of the Rennaissance, was the rebirth of non-christian ideas from the classical world that had been laying dormant as a result of Christian suppression. The US was created in this atmosphere, not Judeo Christian principals. study history, instead of right wing propoganda, and you just might learn something!
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irani



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefania wrote:
Quote:
And in the ME we have the reverse we have Christians trying to convert Muslims, who cares, really?


Pls don't tell lies.

The Middle Eastern Christians are fleeing or hiding because they're the main target of the extremists !


Im not lieing, i've been there ive seen it, have you?
The Christians are not fleeing at all this is just pure propaganda from the extrem right wing.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Christians are not fleeing at all this is just pure propaganda from the extrem right wing.


No, my dear, it's not propaganda.

It's a fact documented by the Christian missionaries, including the nuns and the priests of the Vatican, there.
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irani



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to IranFocus, the Iranians culture minister have admitted that every day about 50 Iranians secretly convert to Christianity.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irani wrote:
According to IranFocus, the Iranians culture minister have admitted that every day about 50 Iranians secretly convert to Christianity.


Yes, secretely. Why not openly ? what you think ?

Remember that Iranian man risking execution for converting to Evangelic Christianity ?

No wonder if 50 Iranians a day convert SECRETLY .
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe dialogue between people of different faiths and philosophies is very helpful. I'm glad spenta is not upset at me because this discussion can be very positive for everyone.

Quote:
PS. The US was not founded on Judeo Christian principals. It was founded on principals of democracy or else it would have been like Europe at the time of its founding with laws of religion, church and royalty ruling over all, instead of democracy! This country was founded on principals of democracy, going back to the Greeks, which predates Christianity. Also, the writings of Votaire and other French philopshers on democracy (definately not Christian), and the Magna Carta were earlier influences, and the magna Carta cited the example of Persian Kings i.e. Cyrus the Great. The Founding fathers were Free Masons, and even a Rosecrucian, they dabbled in ancient knowledge systesm that were kept secretive for fear of persecution by the church as heresy, they had nothing in common with right wing Christian zealots of today.

Much of what the world was dealing with after the Rennassaince had to do with the rebirth of classical Greece after the thousand year sleep of the dark ages and the oppresive rule of the church. The 'Rebirth' of the Rennaissance, was the rebirth of non-christian ideas from the classical world that had been laying dormant as a result of Christian suppression. The US was created in this atmosphere, not Judeo Christian prinispals study history, instead of right wing propoganda, and you just might learn something!


I do not deny that the founders of our constitution studied the writings of ancient Greece. They would have been fools not to study every available model of government they could find including all the forms of government then known including the Roman empire. From the letters between Jefferson and Adams we know the founding fathers were very well versed in classical literature. However for them not to have been heavily influenced by Christian teachings is almost impossible to conceive.

Christianity in the United States is much different than that practiced in Europe. It is the evangelical fundamentalists who are the true revolutionaries who have revitalized Christianity and have made this country what it is. This is not to deny the contributions of the many old line Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and Zoroastrians who have also made important contributions. However the true cultural creativity is in the hands of the fundamentalists. They were the ones who contributed so heavily to the religious liberty we have in our country.

It is very important to understand the first "Great Awakening" which occurred immediately prior to the American revolution. http://www.wfu.edu/~matthetl/perspectives/four.html
http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/grawaken.htm
http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/erelrev.htm
This was an out pouring of evangelistic furver which was very similar to that now found in Pentacostal churches and some Baptist churches today. The teachings included the "born again" experience which is still the beginning of many Christian's walk with God. For many people, although they would never express it this way, Evangelical Christianity is the religion of the proletariat against the hegemony of the religious and political elites. It is this revolutionary spirit which sparked the rebellion against England and led to the US Constitution with the Bill of Rights. It is this revolutionary spirit which still scares the willies out of the cultural establishment today.

Here is a list of the members of the Constitutional Convention with the list of delegates and their religious affiliations:
http://www.errantskeptics.org/Fifty_Five_Delegates.htm
They represented quite a broad spectrum of Christian denominations with a few diests. The most influential diest was Benjamin Franklin. The following has a good discussion of Mr. Franklin's proposal that the members of the convention should pray before their sessions:http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=19.

To understand American democracy it is vital to understand the central role of the evangelical Christians in shaping our society and forcing the country to adopt religious freedoms. It is this latent power and rebellion which causes the establishment to fear and constantly attack them. Incidentally one reason the Chinese government so fears the Christian influence is because they have seen how the Christians have led the movement for freedom in Eastern Europe, a process which is still in progress today. Like Harod in Jesus time, they have decided to "kill the baby in the cradle" before the Chinese too become a free democratic people. The reason I support the Evangelical Christians so much is because I know so long as they are strong our democracy and our freedoms are assurred.
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear American Visitor

I think we live in 2 different worlds, or possibly 2 diferent dimensions. In the world and dimension that I live in, the Founding Father's of the United States were not Christian Evangelicals and Benjamin Franklin was also not a Christian Evangelical.

As for the Founding father's religion, they did not make it an issue, and they based their writings on much of the philosophy of ancient Greece (pre- Christian) and the emerging Rennaissance dialog of Europe, the beginings of secualrity and non religious and secular discourse.

The Founding Father's were also Freemasons, it would be more accurate to say that this country was founded on the principals of democracy (from Greece) and Freemasonry. The New Testamant, or Judaic and Christian sacred texts are not sited nor referenced in the Constitution, however much of (in fact a whole lot of) Greek Philosophy, ancient world systems of social justice and non-religious European philosophy is. The rule of law (code of hamorabi), religious freedom (Cyrus the Great cited in the magna Carta) were examples of ancient non Judaic/Christian systems that influenced the foundign of the US.

And last but notleast, secualr culture and society has systematically progressed towards an expansion of rights as freedom, and last time I checked Christian Evangelicals were proposing a retraction of rights. From prohibition of female reproduction, government control of women's bodies, government control of relationships between adults, bans on science and scientific research, and the list goes on, this is not about expanding freedom, but limiting it. And last but notleast forcing children to pray in school is not expanding freedom! I do not see Christian Evangelicals expanding freedom, I see them doing what all religious zealots do, be they Islamist, Zionist or Christian Fundemantalist, curbing freedoms, controlling people and oppressing them. I am no fan of religion, and I do not have any respect or trust for groups that seek to control the behavior of others in the name of greater good, I watch the muslim version do the same in Iran in the name of greater good and with the promise of greater freedom, so I don't buy it regardles of which religion or group is making the claim. Christian Evangelicals, alongside all other religious groups seeking political power and demands on limiting personal freedoms represent oppression to me, not freedom!

Like I said, we disagree, and clearly live in different worlds, and possibly even different dimensions.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that a Christian Evangelist is always an extremist .

There are Iranians in Iran who face execution for converting to Christianity and are Evangelists.

We need to make a difference between the extremists and the moderate believers.

Being a Christian evangelist doesn't make one an extremist.
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not see Christian Evangelicals expanding freedom, I see them doing what all religious zealots do, be they Islamist, Zionist or Christian Fundemantalist, curbing freedoms, controlling people and oppressing them. And if you lived in the US you would also see them working hard to enforce their extremist religious views on others. I still stand by what I wrote, I see them as intolerant, Fundementalist, and extremist, and working hard to impose their will on others, from control of female reproduction, to bans on stem cells, forcing children to pray in school (their way), and bans on homosexuality.

Gimme a break Stefania
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American Visitor



Joined: 19 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear spenta,

I'm glad we can talk in a civil manner. There is absolutely no reason we have to agree. Part of the beauty of living in a free country is people have the opportunity to disagree.

You said:
Quote:
I think we live in 2 different worlds, or possibly 2 diferent dimensions. In the world and dimension that I live in, the Founding Father's of the United States were not Christian Evangelicals and Benjamin Franklin was also not a Christian Evangelical.

As for the Founding father's religion, they did not make it an issue, and they based their writings on much of the philosophy of ancient Greece (pre- Christian) and the emerging Rennaissance dialog of Europe, the beginings of secualrity and non religious and secular discourse.


As I documented in my previous post, the Americans at the time of the Revolution were an intensley religious people and it is completely illogical to think religion had no part in their decisions at the constitutional convention. No matter how much secularists may wish the founders of this great country were pagans, that is just not the case. They were deeply religious men.

Part of the Great Awakening was to break up the religious establishment and democratize religion. It became the posession of the people. They certainly weren't going to let the government interfere in their worship. England also a deeply religious society had been governed by a constitutional monarchy for some time before the American revolution so they had a model to follow already. The biggest innovation in the United States was to guarantee religious freedom to it's citizens and abolish state churches. To most Americans Christianity and religious freedom are synominous.

Quote:
The Founding Father's were also Freemasons, it would be more accurate to say that this country was founded on the principals of democracy (from Greece) and Freemasonry. The New Testamant, or Judaic and Christian sacred texts are not sited nor referenced in the Constitution, however much of (in fact a whole lot of) Greek Philosophy, ancient world systems of social justice and non-religious European philosophy is. The rule of law (code of hamorabi), religious freedom (Cyrus the Great cited in the magna Carta) were examples of ancient non Judaic/Christian systems that influenced the foundign of the US.


I have never denied the influence of other ideas on the founding fathers. I believe they were generally well read men and if you read the reference to Benjamin Franklin's call for prayer, they expressly examined all forms of government available to them. If you read the links I gave you will also find this was a deeply religious society and it is impossible to separate the founding fathers from their religious culture. I suppose some were Freemasons, but I have no knowledge to indicate this was a major factor.

Quote:
And last but notleast, secualr culture and society has systematically progressed towards an expansion of rights as freedom, and last time I checked Christian Evangelicals were proposing a retraction of rights. From prohibition of female reproduction, government control of women's bodies, government control of relationships between adults, bans on science and scientific research, and the list goes on, this is not about expanding freedom, but limiting it. And last but notleast forcing children to pray in school is not expanding freedom! I do not see Christian Evangelicals expanding freedom, I see them doing what all religious zealots do, be they Islamist, Zionist or Christian Fundemantalist, curbing freedoms, controlling people and oppressing them. I am no fan of religion, and I do not have any respect or trust for groups that seek to control the behavior of others in the name of greater good, I watch the muslim version do the same in Iran in the name of greater good and with the promise of greater freedom, so I don't buy it regardles of which religion or group is making the claim. Christian Evangelicals, alongside all other religious groups seeking political power and demands on limiting personal freedoms represent oppression to me, not freedom!


Evangelical Christians are quite diverse and will have different opinions on some issues. It is a grass roots movement and there it is impossible to speak for them all. Anything I say would mis-represent their views particularly since I do not consider myself personally a fundamentalist. I'm standing up for them because I believe the attacks against them by secularists are often vulgar and tasteless. If you hate my answers, they are my ideas alone, I don't speak for anyone else.

I will answer with my own take on these issues.
Society in countries such as Holland has become completely without any standards what so ever. Drug use is legal, prostitution is common, abortion is considered a right, marriage means little, and euthanasia is legal. I'm not sure about Holland, but in most secularist societies the only thing which is restricted is the free exercise of religion. For the secularists, the less rules the better, however this does not alway lead to a good or stable society. In fact, there are consequences to these behaviors which can destabilize these societies.

Let me talk about euthanasia since I've been following the debate quite closely. The secularists of course are promoting euthanasia and accuse anyone who opposes it as cruel ignorant bigots. Holland has given people the right to be euthanized at the appropriate time. The burden to be the executioners has fallen on the doctors who thereby break their hypocratic oath. Once this right was firmly established and doctors became accustomed to killing people, there began to be pressure applied to people to die when they became a burden to those around them. It was not a completely free decision to be killed. Then reports began to emerge that sometimes the patients weren't asked whether they wanted to die, the doctors were making the decision for them and executing them at their own will. Recently I have read they have extended the "right to die" to babies who are not "living lives worth living." I haven't read about this in peer review magazines but the preliminary information doesn't look good. The question is where this will go next?

There are people who get PHD's in ethics and practice that as their profession. The issues you have raised are not things which can be settled by slogans or shouting at people, put have deep ethical and social consequences which require careful deliberation. When issues seem too simple, it is usually because we haven't considered all the relevant factors.

Quote:

Like I said, we disagree, and clearly live in different worlds, and possibly even different dimensions.


Probably so. I respect your desire for freedom for your country very much. We don't have to agree. However, I'm uncomfortable seeing my fellow Americans put down. Look at the outpouring of aid to the countries affected by the tsunami. They didn't ask whether those people were Christians or not or even whether they would have done the same for us if the circumstances had been reversed. I would put a group of Christian conservatives up against secularists any day of the week for sheer goodness, generosity and love for their fellow men.
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stefania



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spenta, try to come to Italy , where the Vatican dictates what the politicians have to do !

And, guess what... even the leftist politicians here approve laws that are dictated by the Vatican !
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But there's a very BIG difference between the Christian Evangelists and the Islamic Fundamentalists

We live in times where an slow Islamic invasion is threating Europe.

Even if I am an Atheist and a Secularist and a Feminist, I prefer that Europe defends its own Christian values when challenged by the Islamists.

A Feminist lives better in a Christian society than in an Islamic one.

and all the true Feminists must oppose the Islamists..

Yet, sadly some Leftist Femminists here fight only and always against the church but when it comes to the Islamists, they say "We need to learn from their culture and respect it " !

This is not being true femminists

I wish them to defend the poor Nigerian and Moroccoan female immigrants that live here and are abused by their male relatives ( I know one Moroccoan woman that has escaped from a marriaged she did not want ) .
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irani



Joined: 11 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, stefania. It's clear how atheist and secular you are.

The European countries have are where they are beacuse of secularism, Once the European countries where just like the M. E. Countries.

i.e.
Sweden had no religious freedom until 1846, In Sweden women were considered half as worthy as men and women over 26 would become of age in 1776, before that women were not recognized at all! Women were only given the right to run bussinisses since 1866 and was allowed to vote for the first time in 1919. So Sweden made it's greatest progress after the removal of christianity as state religion, the same goes for the rest of Europe, So apparently Equality is not a christian value as it did not existed before sweden became secular.

ME will make it's greatest progress towards equality only after it removes Islam as the State religions.


And tell me more about the great vatican,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3940719.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3489535.stm

"In a special document, the Vatican urged politicians to follow their "moral duty" and to fight against any bill in parliament to legalised gay marriage. "

and then we have the opposite http://www.iranpressnews.com/source/002624.htm

Screw the imamate of Qom and Screw the vatican.
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stefania



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's clear how atheist and secular you are.


Surely more than you are.

The Western countries are based on the separation of Church and State-

Not so the Islamic world.

Quote:
And tell me more about the great vatican,


Pls read it my post again. It seems to me that you did not read it

Quote:
Screw the imamate of Qom and Screw the vatican.


Here I agree !

Screw the Vatican ALSO when it speaks against America and Israel..
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