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Petition to Save Pasargad!

 
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 1829

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:58 pm    Post subject: Petition to Save Pasargad! Reply with quote

http://www.petitiononline.com/Pasargad/petition.html

Please sign this, and get everyone you know to sign it!



To: People of the world and the United Nations Organization

We, the undersigned, regretfully have to inform all the inhabitants of our planet earth that one of the greatest parts of the historical heritage of human race is on the verge of permanent extinction. The Islamic Republic of Iran has embarked on the finalizing stages of a dam construction in south of Iran that will ultimately drown the archeological sites of Pasargad and Persepolice, the ancient capital of the Archimedean Empire – a rich and complex site that, since its inception, has been considered by all writers of antiquity as one of the wonders of the ancient world and, thus, a part of the cultural heritage of the human race.

Comparing to the destruction of two Buddha statues in Afghanistan by the Talibans, this new threat and its consequent loss is beyond any imaginable destruction that have been inflicted on the history of the world. Although these glorious remainders of the Iranian history are a part of this nation’s historical identity, their loss is not by any means confined to them. That is to say, it is not only the Iranian nation that would be deprived of the most important part of its cultural identity; it is the world history that is in danger.

Considering only one fact could convey a powerful message to all of us. Amongst the sites that are threatened to be wiped from the face of the earth lies the tomb of Cyrus the Great, the Archimedean king of 2500 years ago who, in his unification of political systems, brought freedom to all those nations that lived under his lead through his “Declaration of Human Rights.” In fact, he is considered as the first human being in power who has advocated for the right of humans to choose and adhere to their values, cultures, religious creeds and trains of thought. A replica of the cylinder of his declaration is now exhibited in the UN building to symbolize the long efforts of our race to exit from the savagery of the animal kingdom and enter into the man-made civilized world. It is the tomb of this father of human rights that is being totally erased amongst many other historical monuments.

We call upon the conscious of all human beings and caution them about this immanent threat that is shadowing over an ancient country, culture and history. We need to see the immediate action of all world organizations, especially the United Nations and its cultural wings such as UNESCO, to step in and stop this inhumane cruelty to such precious heritages of our human race. We need to see immediate action and will follow our petition in any venues that are opened to us. Accordingly, we are setting up an “International Committee to Save the Archeological Sites of Pasargad” and invite every body to join it. We have to remember this: If the civilized world does not stop such a horrendous action of the forces of destruction now, we will soon lose everything that our civilization has created.

On behalf of the “International Committee to Save the Archeological Sites of Pasargad”

Shokooh Mirzadegi (Iranian writer)
Dr. Esmail Nooriala (Iranian Writer)

For joining the committee and/or reading a Farsi translation of this letter, as well as some relevant documents on this issue visit:

Sincerely,
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Toofaan



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Spenta

I have read enough of your matterials to know that you are a true patiotic Iranian with great sense of love and passion for our nation and our homeland! I admire you greatly for your tireless efforts and hardwork in that direction and appreciate that very much! The reason for posting this response here, is my personal familiarity with the area of the problem as far as the landscape and profession! I read about the issue from different sources and among them, to my surprise, from a number of islamic regime's propaganda media (ie: mehr-news, baztab... etc...)! having some familiarity with geography of the area and also knowing that no one from within islamic regime will speak a word in opposition of any issue if it may cause problem for the system, makes the whole story very suspecious to me! I am wondering why islamic regime's media getting involved in propaganda against a project because, based on their claims, it poses a danger to historic sites?! Is there any background of such behavior in any other cases?! I don't remember any!

The company which is building the Sivand dam, has done many other projects, among them, another dam, a lot closer to the Persepolis and Naqshe-rostam, called "droodzan dam" to distribute water for farming in the area of Marvdasht (the town a couple of KM to the south of Persepolis)!

The distance between Persepolis and Naqshe-rostam is a few KM and the tomb of Cyrus the Great is about 100KM from them , to the north/nw! Sivand is about another 10-20KM further up towards north and the sivand river is at the bottom of a narrow valley with a set of mountains between Pasargad (or dashte morghaab) and Sivand!
looking at the areal pictures of the area around the tomb of Cyrus The Great, Naqshe-rostam and Persepolis, will give you a good idea about location of these historic sites! more over, there are a number of towns and villages in the same area which are all in a lover elevation than those historic sites, compared to the sea level! Flodding those historic sites as claimed, requires flodding all those towns and villages too which does not make any sense specially when you know the distance between the dam and Persepolis is more than 100KM which is unreasonable to expect the lake behind a dam stretches that long! take a look at the following pictures:

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/ASF/10B1_72dpi.html

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/ASF/10B9_72dpi.html

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/SRI/1A5_72dpi.html

and also take a look at my post in response to the same topic in another message board: http://www.iranunited.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=6383&s=22e5544bf7d781d4539c7b81fe099d4a

I strongly believe that there is something other than concerns about damage to historic sites which is driving islamic regime's propaganda machine to get involved in this issue!
As far as Shokooh Mirzadegi and Mr. Noorialaa, I really have not seen any extraordinary understanding or knowledge towards our national issues from these two! I have seen Mr. Noorialaa get very easily angry and personal when hearing others disagreements with his views and I, honestly, don't see them capable of presenting any valuable argument to reasonably satisfy a logical minded person on any issue!

kindest regards
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no sorry, this is completely baseless. I was myself in Pasargadae and Persepolis less than 2 months ago and talked first hand with archaelogists and tourist guides there. The dam is NOT going to touch Pasargadae or Persepolis, only other archaelogical artifacts further down the valley, many of whom yet to be unearthed. It's sad to lose anything valuable, but this is a move initiated by exiled opposition figures which, to the best of my information, are not portraying the situation correctly.

Here are two explanatory articles...
http://www.chn.ir/en/news/?id=5477&section=2
and
http://www.chn.ir/en/news/?id=5477&section=2
and
http://www.google.it/url?sa=U&start...00.html&e=10342
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cyrus
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 4993

PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Petition to Save Pasargad! Reply with quote

Spenta wrote:
http://www.petitiononline.com/Pasargad/petition.html

Please sign this, and get everyone you know to sign it!



To: People of the world and the United Nations Organization

We, the undersigned, regretfully have to inform all the inhabitants of our planet earth that one of the greatest parts of the historical heritage of human race is on the verge of permanent extinction. The Islamic Republic of Iran has embarked on the finalizing stages of a dam construction in south of Iran that will ultimately drown the archeological sites of Pasargad and Persepolice, the ancient capital of the Archimedean Empire – a rich and complex site that, since its inception, has been considered by all writers of antiquity as one of the wonders of the ancient world and, thus, a part of the cultural heritage of the human race.

Comparing to the destruction of two Buddha statues in Afghanistan by the Talibans, this new threat and its consequent loss is beyond any imaginable destruction that have been inflicted on the history of the world. Although these glorious remainders of the Iranian history are a part of this nation’s historical identity, their loss is not by any means confined to them. That is to say, it is not only the Iranian nation that would be deprived of the most important part of its cultural identity; it is the world history that is in danger.

Considering only one fact could convey a powerful message to all of us. Amongst the sites that are threatened to be wiped from the face of the earth lies the tomb of Cyrus the Great, the Archimedean king of 2500 years ago who, in his unification of political systems, brought freedom to all those nations that lived under his lead through his “Declaration of Human Rights.” In fact, he is considered as the first human being in power who has advocated for the right of humans to choose and adhere to their values, cultures, religious creeds and trains of thought. A replica of the cylinder of his declaration is now exhibited in the UN building to symbolize the long efforts of our race to exit from the savagery of the animal kingdom and enter into the man-made civilized world. It is the tomb of this father of human rights that is being totally erased amongst many other historical monuments.

We call upon the conscious of all human beings and caution them about this immanent threat that is shadowing over an ancient country, culture and history. We need to see the immediate action of all world organizations, especially the United Nations and its cultural wings such as UNESCO, to step in and stop this inhumane cruelty to such precious heritages of our human race. We need to see immediate action and will follow our petition in any venues that are opened to us. Accordingly, we are setting up an “International Committee to Save the Archeological Sites of Pasargad” and invite every body to join it. We have to remember this: If the civilized world does not stop such a horrendous action of the forces of destruction now, we will soon lose everything that our civilization has created.

On behalf of the “International Committee to Save the Archeological Sites of Pasargad”

Shokooh Mirzadegi (Iranian writer)
Dr. Esmail Nooriala (Iranian Writer)

For joining the committee and/or reading a Farsi translation of this letter, as well as some relevant documents on this issue visit:

Sincerely,


Dear Compatriots and ActivistChat Members,

We are pleased to inform you that the “Save the Precious Archeological Sites of Pasargad in Iran” by two brilliant Iranian writers Ms. Shokooh Mirzadegi and Dr. Esmail Nooriala has become No.1 among the Most Active - Top 10 Petitions - 2005.0908 in the petitiononline site. Please visit http://www.petitiononline.com to see it yourself. Our congratulations goes to Activist writers of this petition and all freedom-loving people of the world that they have signed this petition in short period of time. Please inform everyone this good news. Also an organization formed by Ms. Shokooh Mirzadegi and Dr. Esmail Nooriala to deal with this major problem please visit the site.

http://www.puyeshgaraan.com/Pasargad/Pasargad_Main.htm


Regards,
Cyrus
ActivistChat.com
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Spenta



Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 1829

PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Toofan

Its great to have you around again, I have missed your posts very much. I read what you wrote and am giving it some serious thought, but for now, I think we should all keep signing this petition!
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1166
Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In re-reading SMCCDI's letter to John Bolton, UN ambassador (US)

The issue is described thus, recognizing the reports, but not passing judgement on their validity.

"....as reportedly the regime via a dam, will submerge...."


(excerpt in context)

Indeed, the Islamic Republic regime is engaged in terror,
torture and atrocity on a daily basis, and this
illegitimate regime dares to call itself Democratic, an
advocate of human rights, and protector of the oppressed
throughout the region. A cruel joke added onto the injury
to our nation's pride and heritage, as reportedly the
regime via a dam, will submerge the founder of Persia,
Cyrus the Great's tomb and the archeological sites of
Pasargad and Persepolice under water.
The only way our people can regain our honor, civil
liberties and the trust of the world for a WMD-free Iran
that seeks to provide a safer future for the world and
adheres to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is by
providing us, the people of Iran, the support for our
legitimate aspirations of liberty necessary to restore hope
to the land that Cyrus the Great brought Democracy to over
2500 years ago.

Those ancient precepts regarding freedom of worship,
individual right to own property, freedom from slavery,
representative government in a democratic "federalist"
government that respected the states rights to determine
local laws so long as they were consistent with the
inherent rights of the people, respecting territorial
integrity in the process, have proven themselves over time
and among many cultures. The UN has a replica of this vital
document on display in the entrance lobby. It is as if to
us, the regime intends to submerge the very tenets that
civilization was founded upon, honored and recognized in
the UN, on display. This is not just Persia's heritage
that is at stake, but mankind's, and we hope that a
resolution will be tabled and mandated to protect and
preserve this historical legacy for future generations.


http://www.daneshjoo.org/article/publish/article_3326.shtml


-------------

From all that I've seen and read I'd say the letter captures the accurate reflection of Iranian feeling toward the issue, and in my opinion has offered a rather elegent solution to the international community.
Where no matter the validity of the reports, the sanctity and protection of the sites will be in the international trust.

From what I've gathered, and someone please correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't the regime attempt to buldoze these sites shortly after the 79 Islamic revolution, stopped only by Iranians placing their bodies on the roads leading to those sites to stop the buldozers?

Beyond any propaganda, misinformation, political consideration for source documentation, does not this one fact reveal intent on the part of the regime as long-standing policy to attempt to erase any trace of cultural heritage not in accordance with its ideology, as well as the budding democracic precepts that existed 2500 years ago?

Is anyone here fooled that the attendance by the IRI government at the Iranian cultural exhibit in the UK recently means they've suddenly become history buffs, and cultural caretakers?

If posing with Straw for a photo op angered folks, what about the IRI's posing as if that was their legacy on display?

I pose this to all, as food for thought.
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1166
Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shahriar,

You posted two identical links, but in your article linked here it places the gorge 4 miles from Pasargadae, and in another article (posted complete here for your inspection, it places it it at 8 miles.)


Here are two explanatory articles...
http://www.chn.ir/en/news/?id=5477&section=2
and
http://www.chn.ir/en/news/?id=5477&section=2

---------------------

http://www.chn.ir/en/news/?Section=2&id=4899

Tehran, Mar. 6 (CHN) – Experts are demanding a postponement of the flooding of Sivand Dam, saying they need at least four years to study and save the ancient treasures of Bolaghi Gorge.

The current time span provided for the studies is just one year, and experts are worried that part of the culture and history of the area will be lost forever.

Bolaghi gorge is located 8 kilometers from the world heritage site of Pasargadae in Fars province and is considered part of its landscape. The King’s Road, the key historical road of Iran which was constructed by order of Darius of the Achaemenids and connected Persepolis to Susa, passes through the gorge, and remains of cave dwellings and settlements as old as the prehistoric to the Islamic times have been found there.

According to head of the joint team of Iranian and Italian archaeologists already starting work there, Alireza Asgari, just a small fraction of the remains could be saved before the one year time is up. He believes that at least four years are needed to save the ancient treasures.

So far, more than five thousand potsherds and a village dating to the Achaemenid time have been discovered in the area, surprising the archaeologists.

Sivand Dam, the project of which started in 1998, is planned to be flooded by the Iranian Energy Ministry by the end of next year. Until then, archaeologists from Iran, France, England, Poland, Germany, Australia, and Japan are to work there hand in hand to save its historical heritage.

During last months, experts from the Pars-e Pasargadae Research Institute and the Iranian Cultural Heritage and Tourism Organization have identified more than 100 ancient sites in the area, which, according to head of Pasargadae ancient complex, Babak Kial, include prehistoric hills, metal furnaces, caves and prehistoric dwellings, and two collective cemeteries dating to the Parthian times.


---------------------

Your other link gave me the following response, a first in my experience as I google to my heart's content....

http://www.google.it/url?sa=U&start...00.html&e=10342

Forbidden
Your client does not have permission to get URL /url?sa=U&start...00.html&e=10342 from this server.


-------------------

Now when there is conflicting data from the same source, doesn't that cause you to wonder whether the facts you believe may in fact be questionable in their accuracy in totality?

Why is it that you did not post the article I posted above complete, calling for a four year delay?

I mean, I'm going by the same source origin you are here, with an open mind in my research...whether the sites are in danger is still a question to me..from a topographical perspective, but to address Toofan's 100 Km issue, there are manmade lakes in the US that would exceed this

I hope you'll address my questions regarding your posting of this source which conflicts with itself in very basic ways, in the articles from the single source they came from.

In conclusion sir, I would say there is ample concern present for the international community to call for an intensive investigation into the whole matter, and an immediate suspention placed on the filling of the dam, until such time as archeological investigation is not only complete, but exausted in its ability to find any further artifacts and recover them.
If it takes a generation in the process.


Last edited by Oppenheimer on Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Toofaan



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Spenta,

Thank you for your kind words, you are doing a great job here and every other place that I had a chance to see your work!
My concern on this issue is that islamic regime taking advantage of the situation to cover up their thieveries in this project through creation of false impression regarding the effects on historical sites and using nationalistic sentiments of Iranians to justify that!
The other day, I was listening to Mr. Nooriala's explaination on this petition and his response to allegations of his claims about drowning the Pasargad and Persepolis historical sites being false! He claimed that he was concerned about the historical structures/artifacts in pasargad area other than the tomb of Cyrus the Great and drwoning of the tomb of Cyrus and Persepolis has not been the issue! You can clearly read in his letter above which says: "... the finalizing stages of a dam construction in south of Iran that will ultimately drown the archeological sites of Pasargad and Persepolis, the ancient capital of the Archimedean Empire ..."!
He then claimed that the soil in that area (from Sivand up to Persepolis, about 100KM) is soft and the water collected in the lake behind the dam will penetrate the ground and will eventually cause the tomb of Cyrus and Persepolis to crumble!! This is a very strange claim considering a river is running in the area around the tomb of Cyrus the Great for thousands of years and there is another river a few kilometers to the south of Persepolis! as I mentioned before, droodzan dam is not very far from Persepolis (much much closer than Sivand) and nobody seems to be concenred about "softness" of the soil there! couple of days ago I heard that islamic regime has stopped the project "indefinitely" (this petition seems to be working too fast!) while stating that they are not worried about "monetary damages" (meaning: there will be no accountability?!) becuase they care about Iranian national and historical heritage! and this is coming from same people who wanted to bulldoze the Persepolis 25 years ago and were stopped by locals!

It is true that there are some scattered historical structures/artifacts (mostly not unearthed yet) in the pasargad area and closer to Sivand but with enough work and spending some money, they all can be salvaged while the project can be completed in proper way to help farmers of the area!
Anyways... I wish you the best of luck with all your hard work and efforts.

best regards
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1166
Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Toofan,

(from your post)

....and this is coming from same people who wanted to bulldoze the Persepolis 25 years ago and were stopped by locals!

-----------

Query: Just for sake of clarification, are you confirming independantly the info from my source (which I take to be reliable, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it).

Or are you basing this from my post only?


Reason being, as a matter of assessing fact, I like to have multiple independant sources (which is why I qualified it, asking to be corrected if mistaken).

I take these "locals" you referenced are related to the farmers the lake created will ultimately benefit in the future, if not one and the same?

Coming from a US persective, whenever a state funded project is proposed, it goes through a period of public comment, which is then placed within the project's environmental assesment, on record.
Besides the project description, plans, time-line etc. the EA includes also any and all effect on historic or cultural sites, archeological assesment and recomendation, data on the effect to habitat of indiginous species, and a host of related data so that there is no speculation of the type generated in this case by the lack of such documentation made available to the public at large.

While their may be debate, at least they are all working with the same data, which has been multi-sourced, double checked for accuracy, and all of it gathered and collated in a transparent manner.

Trust me, we have some very vocal locals in the US..(chuckle).

You raise an interesting possibility that occurred to me by saying the "petition was working too fast".

I think we can agree this is an internationally significant issue, and the relations the IRI has with the world are none too good at the moment..I think we can all take that as a "given".

With regards to the UN, the project might simply be the straw that breaks the IRI's back adding one more issue of international outrage on the mullah's pointy little heads.

Katami was just apointed to the "dialoge between cultures" working group in the UN, and it sure as heck wouldn't look good.

So I think factoring into things is a matter of IRI "damage control" , and they've been doing a lot of diplomatic damage control in response to other issues as well of late...

Or trying to.....I don't think they've convinced their critics.
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Toofaan



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Oppenheimer,

on your question regarding bulldozing Persepolis you asked:

Query: Just for sake of clarification, are you confirming independantly the info from my source (which I take to be reliable, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it).

Or are you basing this from my post only?


I used to work in Shiraz oil refinery in those years before I was expelled and forced out for my anti regime activities! We had some people who came to work with us from Marvdasht and around Persepolis area! some of these people were directly involved in holding the butcher khalkhaali back by their gathering around Persepolis when this was happening! so my sources were the people who directly acted on behalf of all nation and pushed khalkhaali back! their move gathered a lot of support at that time and that's why they could not continue to do the same thing they did to the tomb of Reza Shah the Great! this event happened in the first few months after so called islamic revolution in 1979!

another issue with this petition which I forgot to mention is it's effect on credibility of opposition and Iranians abroad who recently show a lot of interest in writting petitions to international institutions like UN or try to undo the damages caused by incompetence and unwillingness of islamic terrorist regime to protect our national interests among the community of nations! I supported the petitions on different issues like Persian Gulf and god knows how many others (I can't remember all of them)! Frankly, I believe we need to do something for real and that takes a lot more work and requires more resources than signing a petition! and the first step in my opinion is to work in direction of a united front from all opposition groups based on their common cause which is removal of islamic terrorist regime!
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1166
Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Toofan,

Thank you for your response and confirmation of events!

As well, the comon denominator in resolving specific issues is concurrance in methodology and application of resources, to effect a holistic solution...which regime change presents...whereas differences between political preferences or personality conflicts may be overcome, or at least put aside to create that united front..

Antar of late, has seemed to offer that catalyst to the opposition....and to the world.
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Hoi Persai



Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 115
Location: AB, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found some recent info from Archaeology magazine, run by the American Institute of Archaeology (AIA). Go here: click and scroll down to Sept. 13, and there are 3 links to the developing stories of the dam, a cemetary damaged by a hotel (of all the useless things to die for Confused ). In the dam stories, you can see some pictures. Basically the only thing that is going to be destroyed for sure is Naqshi Rustam.

Historical info:

Naqshi Rustam is more perfectly preserved than Persepolis. Cyrus' tomb was being excavated last year, so why would they bury it?

Point 1 is: Iran is trying to make itself more Muslim (I estimate 80% infidel population), and to do this it has to take away that which we are attached to in our kuffar ways. Easy way is to flood instead of genocide. Genocide takes time and wipes away loyal ants. Cool

Point 2 is: we must protest anything that Satan's gov't does Twisted Evil because they are bad, and we must bring to the uncaring world's attention these horrors. I am writing on Zoroastrians.

Just doing my part. Wink
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1166
Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Hoi Persai,

I was trying to place your avatar....memory being what it is...I never forget a face...but connecting it is a different matter.....when it suddenly came to me...the 5th element....

Well, if you are that, more power to you trying to save the world from disfunctional uncaring ants who are deaf by nature, engage in crimes against humanity (if not genocide)....armed only with good thoughts, good words and good deeds.

As one who's just seen the effects of a great flood, brought by nature's wrath, and the response of over 100 nations, people in my country opening their doors to those in need, and solidarity in times of tragedy, it is not the world that is uncaring, but ants like Antar who in his speech today at the UN reviled himself in our misfortune, and did more to alert the world of the horrors of this ant's nest regime than anything you may have hoped for from the opposition.

Hung himself with his own hypocracy he did....facing a diplomatic hurricane he is....

Dealing with a terrorist ant's nest in an organic garden, is fairly simple...place a jar (perhaps two) filled with honey, half buried next to the nest....pretty soon you have a jar full of dead ants.

The honey is Democracy, and the nest is between Iraq and a hard place.
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Hoi Persai



Joined: 08 Feb 2004
Posts: 115
Location: AB, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "ants" I was referring to, are the future Muslims. Rolling Eyes

It was a reference to the koran and the talking ants. We know that ants don't talk, so it's untrue. Thus, none of you are loyal to him, although he wishes you to be. Laughing
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1166
Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "ants" I was referring to, are the future Muslims.

-------

Ah yes the ones that would not be....via genocide...got it.

--------

It was a reference to the koran and the talking ants.

-------
You'll have to excuse this Buddhist infidel's ignorance of this particular passage in the Koran.

I suppose you refer to the fact that the Koran is supposedly Allah's word....where I believe all writing is scribed by humans....interpreted as it may be ....and since this would be false supposition on the part of Allah that ants talk..or simply perception..then nothing may be perceived as "truth".

One may wonder the true nature of antness, does ant know its true self? Part of a collective, is it not connected to the one?

There's an old Buddhist teaching..."when Buddha stands in the path to enlightenment, kill him."

When one becomes Buddha, does he still stand in the path?

All things have buddha nature as all things are one. How is ant like Buddha?

All things are made of atoms. Stars, people. What then is the true nature of the ant's universe?

loyalty,disloyalty...unity,duality...life, death...love, war...perception, deception....

Mmmm, when Battleships give way to sailboats, how does the world realize it's true self?



Ba sepaas....
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