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Who Killed the Bush Doctrine?
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Liberty Now !



Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 521

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oppie dear, it's islamic terror we're talking about here!

I so appreciate your enlightening review of our history. but much of it sounds almost ridiculious to millions who lived through it all. the people were terrorized from day 1. suppressed from day 2. and left with no sympathy what so ever from the rest of the world. not only that, but they treated all of the victims of islamo-fascist terrorism in Iran as criminals as well.

again, you guys talk about 90% voting for khomeini's islamic republic. without mentioning the state of coup and military presence in every street corner and all ballots! nobody dared to put a color coded NO in the box. yet many risked their lives, jobs, etc, and did so. probably had to leave the country the next day!

as for islamist terrorism, the links between those groups and west is documented. one of them was the Assasins. from which the knights of Templar learnt valuable lessons(!) the brits had also played a major role in recruiting such groups time and again for their colonial interests.

our own history is full of it. western powers using the Islamic clergy to manipulate the shahs. they've also used the extremist groups linked to the clergy. Iran had lost much land and resources as a result of all that. it's not something new for us. and it continues to this day. the fact that many of the same ayatollahs in charge today were on british payroll in Najaf is also not a mistery to Iranians. never was. it's not a conspiracy as you like to call it. it's part of our history. a dark part, indeed. and no amount of whatwash can smear these facts. because khomeini had happened! and opened up a deep old wound for the nation. that they can no longer forget or forgive. even if they were going to prior to that!


at the end, I really appreciate your enlightening remarks. but please don't waste so much of your valuable time just to enlighten me dear. I wouldn't want you to go to all that trouble just for me!

thank you.

with regards,

Lily
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espandyar



Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Oppenheimer

As I stated eariler, the US policy is shifting and they are supporting the insignificant seperatsit movement in order to deal with IRI.
Well now its a tangable proof of what I stated earlier.

The funny thing is that these useless "think"-tank might make the impossible come true: United the Islamic republic with the Iranians abroad. Shocked

Way to go Ledeen:

http://marzeporgohar.org/index.php?l=1&cat=17&scat=31&artid=666

Now I would like to see where our american activist "freinds" stand.
I guess this event will make things very clear in the future!

let nobody live if there is no Iran
espandyar
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Liberty Now !



Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 521

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: syria minister suicided! Reply with quote

Syria: Minister commits suicide

Wednesday, October 12, 2005; Posted: 1:56 p.m. EDT (17:56 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/12/syria.minister/index.html

DAMASCUS, Syria (CNN) -- Syria's interior minister, who was head of the country's military intelligence in neighboring Lebanon for nearly 20 years, has committed suicide, officials said

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He told the reporter that this will be his last interview.

somebody should'a told him, you know you're going, at least take Assad with ya! save a lot of anguish.


I hope the ayatollahs in Iran take the recent Statement by Bush just as seriously!

I hope when they are suicided (!) they take at least 10 other officials out with them.

maybe then the people can say: bless their soul they've saved us from lots of trouble! if u know what I mean. lol
___________________________________________________________

by the way: HAPPY YOM KIPPUR TO ALL. Smile
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Paayande Iran


Last edited by Liberty Now ! on Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:49 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Liberty Now !



Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 521

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:41 pm    Post subject: updating the threat Reply with quote

Updating the threat
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/634525.html

October 12, 2005
Ha'aretz
Amir Oren



On the eve of Yom Kippur, when the surprise for which Israel is vigilant is no longer an Egyptian and Syrian air and armor attack, but Iranian missiles and Islamic terrorism, the common denominator of Israel and American policy is the rejection of the war of attrition which adversaries are trying to impose.

American policy since September 11, 2001, has been a reaction to the attrition efforts being fomented by errant organizations and regimes and, if there must be attrition, to wage the war far from home, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and maybe also in Syria and Iran, but not in New York or Los Angeles.

Israeli policy in the period after the Gaza disengagement can also be described in terms of rejecting attrition. The bombs and the targeted assassinations in Gaza, together with the large-scale arrests of Hamas and Islamic Jihad activists in the West Bank, illustrated the preference for the threat of escalation, and also its realization, over prolonged bloodletting.

Sources in the General Staff and in Southern Command say that a significant change between the period of the former chief of staff, Moshe Ya'alon, and his successor, Dan Halutz, is the breathing space that Halutz gives the air and ground forces to complete an operation instead of stopping it on the brink of success.

As long as Hamas and Islamic Jihad enjoy Iranian and Syrian patronage, Israel will not succeed in containing the campaign against the organizations in its territory. For similar reasons, U.S. President George Bush is also so determined to lay down the law to the regimes in Damascus and Tehran, both of which face a sharp choice: to change their policy in the nuclear sphere and the support of terrorism, or to absorb an American military blow. A first, or even tenth, nuclear bomb in the Iranian arsenal is not comparable to the thousands of warheads at the disposal of the United States; but thanks to the deterrence they will accord, the terrorist organizations that are abetted by Iran are liable to perpetrate attacks that are more impertinent and lethal than ever.

When it comes to preempting Iran's nuclearization, Israel prefers an American operation but the question of the identity that will do the job is preceded by a question of information: how far along is Iran in obtaining fissionable nuclear material, developing surface-to-surface missiles that can carry nuclear warheads, and weaving all these efforts into an operation force that will also be based on sophisticated command and control systems. When this question is put to research officers in Israel's Military Intelligence, who rely also on other intelligence gathering agencies, notably the Mossad, they have two different replies, which refer to different layers of the Iranian activity.

The relatively reassuring reply is that Iran is still two and a half years away from nuclear power. The years pass, the diplomatic pressure generates passing delays, and this answer does not change. Military Intelligence, invoking the language of clients' payments to suppliers, is talking about "current plus 30" in this case, not 30 days but 30 months.

The more worrisome reply addresses the domestic nuclear technology for which the Iranians are striving, because once they have it, they will be able to move ahead toward their final goal without dependence on external elements.

The outgoing director of Military Intelligence (MI), Major General Aharon Ze'evi (Farkash), was one of the blandest intelligence chiefs Israel has ever had, but he and the head of his Research Division, Brigadier General Yossi Kuperwasser, also made no pretense of being intelligence magicians, like some of their predecessors. They strengthened the sections of the Research Division in the form of expertise in both the target states and in professional spheres. The section that deals with Iran, for example, includes technological knowledge. In 1973, the separation between the different branches of MI / Research was (along with other problems) disastrous.

After the conversation between U.S. President John Kennedy and deputy defense minister Shimon Peres in 1963, the standing Israeli formula has promised that Israel "will not be first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East." That statement is not enough in the era of Iranian threshold nuclearization: Israel has to reach a situation which will enable it to also declare that it "will not be the last to absorb an attack of weapons of mass destruction." That is the deterrent side, but the deterrence depends on MI, and since there is no certainty that MI will not fail again in its evaluations, as it did in 1973, it is worth remembering that the supreme responsibility for deploying to minimize the damage caused by the mistake devolves on those who are in charge of the intelligence chiefs the government and the chief of staff.
----------------------------------------------------------

I think they should get the regime to start first. that way it will be the regime's war, rather than the nation's. I just hope they will be suicided too before it gets to that!
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

espandyar wrote:

"As I stated eariler, the US policy is shifting and they are supporting the insignificant seperatsit movement in order to deal with IRI."

Are you refering to US support for the Iranian people's freedom?

I read your posted article, and it was pretty vague...

As you can look back in Iranian history, the US supported Iranian territorial integrity after WW2 (forcing the Soviets to abide by their agreements) , and I recal a recent statement sometime back regarding the disputed islands in the Persian Gulf in which the US took a position for a status quo(thus protecting territorial integrity until it was resolved between parties in dialoge)

The US has always supported the maintaining of territorial integrity in Iraq, and so I don't really see how you come by this statement in conclusion.
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I think they should get the regime to start first. that way it will be the regime's war, rather than the nation's."

They already have Liberty.


Look, don't patronize me, or try and BS me, I suggest you read "the good sayings" a number of times, and take Cyrus' words seriously. You may also want to give a lot of thought to what I've been telling you for a while now.
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cyrus
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

espandyar wrote:
Dear Oppenheimer

As I stated eariler, the US policy is shifting and they are supporting the insignificant seperatsit movement in order to deal with IRI.
Well now its a tangable proof of what I stated earlier.

The funny thing is that these useless "think"-tank might make the impossible come true: United the Islamic republic with the Iranians abroad. Shocked

Way to go Ledeen:

http://marzeporgohar.org/index.php?l=1&cat=17&scat=31&artid=666

Now I would like to see where our american activist "freinds" stand.
I guess this event will make things very clear in the future!

let nobody live if there is no Iran
espandyar


Dear espandyar,
The following statement by President Bush contradicting your "seperatsit movement" argument.

Bush concluded: "America believes in the independence and territorial integrity of Iran. America believes in the right of the Iranian people to make their own decisions and determine their own future. America believes that freedom is the birthright and deep desire of every human soul. And to the Iranian people, I say: As you stand for your own liberty, the people of America stand with you."


-----------------------------------------------------------------


By William Branigin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 16, 2005; 1:48 PM
Source:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/16/AR2005061601056.html

President Bush, addressing the Iranian people on the eve of their presidential election, today denounced Iran's electoral system as undemocratic and vowed that America would stand with those seeking "freedom" in the Islamic Republic.

In a statement distributed by the White House, Bush charged, "Today, Iran is ruled by men who suppress liberty at home and spread terror across the world. Power is in the hands of an unelected few who have retained power through an electoral process that ignores the basic requirements of democracy."

He added, "The June 17th presidential elections are sadly consistent with this oppressive record."

The statement amounted to a repudiation of the elections and the seven candidates for president, three of whom have campaigned as reformists and are considered relative moderates by local standards. This group includes the front-runner, Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, 70, a Shiite Muslim cleric who has served two previous presidential terms. Although he was formerly known as a hard-liner, Rafsanjani now bills himself as a reformer who intends to improve relations with the West, including the United States, and liberalize the economy.

It was not immediately clear how Bush's criticism would play in Iran, where many people, especially the young, have become alienated by 26 years of rule by fundamentalist Shiite clerics. These hard-liners hold unelected positions with supreme authority over the elected government and legislature.

It was this theocratic structure that was the main target of Bush's statement today.

"Across the Middle East, hopeful change is taking place," Bush said, citing elections in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. "People are claiming their liberty. And as a tide of freedom sweeps this region, it will also come eventually to Iran."

Bush said Iran's unelected rulers rejected more than 1,000 presidential candidates, "including popular reformers and women who have done so much for the cause of freedom and democracy in Iran."

He said Iranians "deserve a genuinely democratic system in which elections are honest -- and in which their leaders answer to them instead of the other way around." He called for a free press, freedom of assembly, a "free economy" independent of the state, an independent judiciary and religious freedom.

"Today, the Iranian regime denies all these rights," Bush said. "It shuts down independent newspapers and Web sites and jails those who dare to challenge the corrupt system. It brutalizes its people and denies them their liberty."


Bush concluded: "America believes in the independence and territorial integrity of Iran. America believes in the right of the Iranian people to make their own decisions and determine their own future. America believes that freedom is the birthright and deep desire of every human soul. And to the Iranian people, I say: As you stand for your own liberty, the people of America stand with you."
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espandyar



Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well pardon me for believing somethingelse!

According to the think-tank Iran is not IRAN it is PERSIA ans the rest is baloochestan kurdestan ....

See the thread under bad news way down the topic list!

The change of policy from American Interprise Institute and Ledeen who is now promoting seperatist movements and calls ahvaz for al-ahwaz tells me that there are more things behind the curtain that you think.

I urge you to stand firm on this, even you oppenheimer!
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Oppenheimer



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I urge you to stand firm on this, even you oppenheimer!"


espandyar,

Why would you say "even you Oppenheimer!" ???

Think tanks and one man's opinion do not US policy make....Ledeen does not speak for the US gov.

The president does, and he sets foreign policy....remember this.

You say:

"Well pardon me for believing somethingelse! "

And my response is ....don't believe everything you think.
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Liberty Now !



Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 521

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what's this story about ledeen and separatists? espandyar. where's the article?
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Spenta



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah where is this Ledeen piece?

PS. I too have noticed more support for separtist movments on the part of the US & the British as well.
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espandyar



Joined: 15 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here it is my friends:

http://www.aei.org/events/type.upcoming,eventID.1166,filter.all/event_detail.asp

Just do a little research and you will see that some of these people are highly questionable.

Ledeen might jave written good articles and made good interviews but at the ned of the day he cares for his countries interest and not Iranians. It is up to us to show what we accpet and what we dont, no matter of who it is!

Regards
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blank



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 1672

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

espandyar wrote:
Here it is my friends:

http://www.aei.org/events/type.upcoming,eventID.1166,filter.all/event_detail.asp

Just do a little research and you will see that some of these people are highly questionable.

Ledeen might jave written good articles and made good interviews but at the ned of the day he cares for his countries interest and not Iranians. It is up to us to show what we accpet and what we dont, no matter of who it is!

Regards


Espandiar: Have you heard the Persian expression: making a mountain out of a straw (Az kaah khoohi sakhti).
I don't see how a conference where Ledeen is a moderator, is going to lead to secession of all the different ethnic groups from Iran. It is only a conference, neither Bush nor anyone has endorsed it....
Does the conference say Iran should be divided into pieces?? I did not see anywhere in that link any indication of that. To me it looks more like opposition from different ethnic groups are gathering to voice their digust for the regime. I don't know how you can reach the conclusion that, this means US is trying to divide Iran into different pieces. Unless you can come up with the link of the content of this conference that actually says they are making plans to separate Iran into different sessions....otherwise I cannot give much credence to it.
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espandyar



Joined: 15 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well as we say in persian" mikhai loghmaro barat bejoam?"


You will be updated when the next statement comes out!
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Liberty Now !



Joined: 04 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuma War presents: Assault on Iran. for Free !

movies showing attacks on Iran
http://www.peiknet.com/1384/06mehr/assault_iran.WMV

well let's just say the 70 million Iraninans will make sure in real life it's not gonna be for Free!
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