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Who Killed the Bush Doctrine?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U.S. and EU3 urged to remain united on Iran Mon. 10 Oct 2005


BERLIN - The United States and Europe must maintain a united front to thwart Iran's nuclear ambitions in the face of likely efforts by Tehran to sow division, a senior U.S. State Department official said on Monday.

Kurt Volker, a senior official responsible for Europe and Eurasia in the U.S. State Department, said it was vital that Germany, France and Britain -- known as the EU3 -- and the United States agree to stick together on Iran.

"I think the Iranians are deeply interested in trying to find divisions between the United States and the EU3, or even within the EU3," Volker said.

"So they will take a small step and see how people react. I think it's very important that we react in a unified way that makes clear what it is we expect the Iranians need to do. That is in fact what we are doing."

Washington and the EU have prepared the way for the governing board of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to send Iran to the U.N. Security Council next month for possible sanctions for violating international obligations.

The United States and its European allies argue Iran is making atomic fuel for use in weapons, but Tehran says its nuclear programme is dedicated solely to generating electricity.

"The Iranians know what they need to do," Volker said. "It's not a secret. We haven't been doing this privately, but in a very public way. If they come forward and say 'Ok we accept that as a basis and are prepared to talk on how to do this' I think we would all engage immediately.

"But at the same time I don't think we are going to be diverted, or distracted or divided by half-steps or small steps or probing of our position."

He said the United States would work closely with the EU3.

"We need to be careful and smart. We need to be as effective diplomatically as we can. And we also need to be prepared to go on to further steps, to go on to the U.N. Security Council if it seems a purely diplomatic approach is not working. That's a uniformly shared view."
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

US briefs on alleged Iranian nuclear warhead work: diplomats Sun. 9 Oct 2005


by Michael Adler

VIENNA - The United States has briefed key nations on intelligence that it says shows Iranian atomic weapons work, namely research on getting a missile warhead to explode at an altitude that would maximize the blast of a nuclear explosion, diplomats and analysts told AFP.

However, a non-Western diplomat said the US briefing, carried out in various capitals ahead of a meeting in September of the UN atomic watchdog, "looks plausible but there is no hard evidence" giving direct proof of a nuclear warhead project.

Iran says its nuclear work is strictly peaceful and on Sunday hit back at the US allegations, with foreign ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi saying: "It's a lie. It needs no more explanation."

A diplomat close to the Vienna-based watchdog International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said that setting a warhead explosion at such a height, which is about 600 metres (yards), the same altitude at which the Hiroshima atomic bomb was detonated, would make sense only for nuclear weapons.

Chemical, biological or conventional weapons need to detonate closer to the ground in order to be effective.

The intelligence does not indicate whether the weapon the warhead is to hold is nuclear but the United States still considers the data the most important information it has on Iran, diplomats said.

The intelligence, the existence of which was first reported by the Wall Street Journal in March, contains diagnostic test information on putting a package, a so-called black box, inside the one of the medium-range Shahab-3 ballistic missile, a diplomat told AFP.

It consists of extensive Farsi-language computer files and reports. US officials are confident the data is genuine, diplomats said, even though some analysts have criticized it as unreliable since it is believed to come from only one source.

US officials in Vienna refused to comment on the matter.

A diplomat said that, according to the briefings, Iranian research was done from 2001-2003 at a semi-government owned industrial group that works on the Shahab missile and which was on a project commissioned by the elite Revolutionary Guards military.

The black box, actually a round container, is not identified as a nuclear warhead nor do blueprints show pits for uranium or plutonium, the two atomic bomb materials, but experts believe the package is meant to be atomic, diplomats said.

The United States gave the briefing to IAEA director general Mohamed ElBaradei and his deputy director for international safeguards Ollie Heinonen in July and then to several nations, including top allies such as Japan and EU states Britain, Germany and France, as well as Russia, China, India, South Africa, and Ghana, all on the IAEA's 35-nation board of governors, diplomats said.

The briefings ahead of an IAEA board meeting in September were part of campaigning for a resolution that found Iran in non-compliance with international nuclear safeguards and could lead to referring Tehran to the UN Security Council for possible sanctions.

Non-proliferation expert Gary Samore, a former US White House official under then-President Bill Clinton, described the data as "basically computer calculations of different configurations for a warhead delivery."

"I'm very confident that it's authentic," Samore said of the information, adding that it was "pretty clear that it was a nuclear warhead that was being designed."

ElBaradei, whose IAEA has been investigating Iran since February 2003, says "the jury is still out" on whether there is a covert atomic weapons program.

A Western diplomat said: "People are being careful because they have been burnt in the past," referring to faulty weapons intelligence about Iraq that was used to justify the US-led invasion of that country in March 2003.

But Washington-based non-proliferation expert David Albright, a physicist and former UN weapons inspector, said: "From my own knowledge of the documents, it appears to be a first effort to develop a credible re-entry vehicle for a nuclear weapon."

A diplomat said the program had the code-name Project 111.

Drawings for the warhead showed "a set of bridge wires," used to detonate explosives arranged in a circle to drive material inwards, the diplomat said.

Albright explained that this "very precise detonation of explosives creates a shock wave typically used to force a chain reaction in nuclear weapons."

The IAEA is trying to get access to certain military sites in Iran, including the Parchin facility where high-explosives work is carried out, as well as interviews with key people like Mohsen Fakrizadeh, who may be the head of the alleged Project 111, a diplomat said.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larijani: Iran will suspend nuclear spot checks if threatened Mon. 10 Oct 2005

Iran Focus

Tehran, Iran, Oct. 10 – Ali Larijani, secretary general of Iran’s Supreme National Security Council, said that he planned to formulate a new national security doctrine, state-run dailies reported on Monday.

“Currently, we don’t have a plan for national security”, Larijani said, adding, “One of the projects we are following up is the formulation of a national security doctrine”.

“Every country must have a national security doctrine and renew it over time”, the SNSC chief said.

Larijani, a former General of the Revolutionary Guards and a protégé of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, is a key ally of President Ahmadinejad. As secretary general of the SNSC, Larijani is in charge of Iran’s nuclear negotiations with the West.

“If they speak to us with threatening language, we will resist”, Larijani warned. “We will not leave the Non-Proliferation Treaty, but we will not accept the Additional Protocol”, he stated referring to the agreement which gives international inspectors the ability to carry out spot inspections in the country.

Larijani said that Iran would accept certain points in the latest resolution adopted by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), but other points would be rejected.

“We said that we have plans for [uranium] enrichment. We will not back down from our decision even if they increase the cost of carrying out work at the Isfahan Uranium Conversion Facility (UCF). They know that Iran is serious”.

“We have a particular program and do not want to delve into its details at present. However, this program has a set timeframe”.

Larijani complained that international bodies had treated Tehran worse than North Korea. “North Korea, who is further ahead than us in nuclear technology and enrichment, has no problem with the Agency, but, with Iran, every day there is a problem”.

Larijani also announced that senior nuclear negotiator Sirous Nasseri was no longer in the negotiations team. There has been speculation that Nasseri had fallen foul of Iran’s leader after it emerged that he had ties to an oil company involved in dealings with a United States company with links to senior American officials.


Comment: Nassieri probably decided to buy some stock. But then, given who's making the claim against Nassieri...this could simply be propaganda.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry if that was you oppie lol but there were too many suspicious posts at the time. that wasn't an isolated case. I think the admins made a decision to stop posts as GUEST. and it was a wise decision. wasn't mine.

as far as an accident happening in Bushehr, I'm sorry if you got the idea that other nations don't have any interests or rights of their own to defend. we do!

listen oppie, suppose I leave this site. you wont be able to get all Iranians cheer for an attack on their land!

millions are ready to die for their national interests around the world, just like Americans do! and no one welcomes attacks on their soil just like Americans don't. I'm sorry if you were told otherwise. try handling the truth for a change.
Paayande Iran
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I'm sorry if that was you oppie lol"

Nope it wasn't, and even if it had been it wouldn't matter, you've been made out to be a true hypocrite.

"but there were too many suspicious posts at the time. that wasn't an isolated case. I think the admins made a decision to stop posts as GUEST. and it was a wise decision. wasn't mine. "

Since you posted under various "guest" ID's I guess you know it wasn't isolated ...but that...is just typical of your hypocritical methodology.

"listen oppie, suppose I leave this site. you wont be able to get all Iranians cheer for an attack on their land!"

I suppose if you do, I won't have to be wasting my time tring to knock some common sense and courtesy into your brain.

The rest of your post isn't even worthy of comment, as you well know the Basiji and IRI staged those "Pro-nuke" protests themselves.

As for my efforts here to illuminate the facts, the possibility of war being one..and no one cheers for that...it then must become the realization of the Iranian people of the risk the IRi places them in, so they can act to remove the regime, and the threat it poses to them...and to the world...
The way things are going...they need a little help from their friends to succeed...before it's too late for anything but military intervention under the "responsibility to protect" as defined at the 2005 UN summit.

It may already be too late, as it would take some time for an internal change to produce results, and a divided opposition needs time to speak with one voice to gather the millions too afraid of the regime to join them in the streets.

Seems the more the regime is pressed, the more you defend the IRI Liberty...it's becoming obvious at this point...

It's what you don't say that says the most.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Propaganda and Reality

Massoud Behnoud

In closed political societies one of the major problems in governance is that when a public policy is launched as the central public goal, its executioners become so completely sold by it that they shut their ears to other possibilities and views while others repeat the goals so much that the goal becomes almost divine and sacrosanct so that any criticism over it is viewed as a negation or an attack on the national interest of that society.

There are many such examples in Iran’s contemporary history. Here are a few.

Towards the end of Reza Shah’s rule some 64 years ago, no one dared to repeat what the French commander at the Officers College had told the Shah. To the Shah’s question as to how long the Iranian military could withstand a hypothetical Allied attack, the French commander is reported to have replied, “a few minutes.” During Mohammad Reza Shah’s rule in the 1970s no one dared to question the rapid pace of reforms that he had instituted. And if any one dared to, he would have been subjected to the same fate of Dr Amini (former Prime Minister who was permanently removed from power), Abdollah Entezam (also permanently removed from power), or Reza Rafi. Similarly, when the professionals at the Plan and Budget Organization of Iran called on the officials in 1974 not to spend the newly acquired petrodollars, that were reaped through the sharp increase in oil prices, on foreign imports because that would be inflationary in nature and lead to social discontent, they were condemned to silence. In the same vein, when Ezatollah Sahabi, a prominent politician from Iran’s National Front, and his colleagues called on the official leaders of the country to stop the Iran-Iraq war at an appropriate occasion, they were imprisoned.

Today we have a similar situation. Although I must admit not in such a closed atmosphere that existed in the past. Let’s look at some recent news events.

In a talk with the national television president Ahmadinejad called the recent instability of Iran’s stock market fake, and said “since only 8 percent of the stock market is in the hands of institutions owned by the government or the public sector the recent fluctuations in the market can be corrected to solve the stock problem.”

With that as guidance, last Saturday Kayhan newspaper wrote the following:
The first step to correct the stock market which has alarmed its more than 3 million small investors these days is to find the shortcomings, faults, and violations that have gradually plagued Tehran’s Stock Exchange Organization since two years ago. To accomplish that the government or the Majlis (parliament) need to appoint a team of auditors and domain experts to investigate the management of the Stock Exchange Organization and the decision-makers of the capital market – stock brokers – and the investment companies who have established offshoots.

The reality of the situation, as everyone knows, is that the government that came to power through the promise of radical revolutionary slogans to win the support of a people that is tired of ineffective government, has taken a confrontational and harsh approach towards the world, local managers and investors, and which threatens to arrest and close what it does not like. Everyone is reminded of the revolution and its first days. Once again we hear slogans that please those on the edges of society and the deprived, and equally frighten the local and foreign investors. If this fright is “fake”, as Mr. Ahmadinejad believes, then we must say that so are all the fluctuations of the world stocks and markets. When countries begin to talk in harsh and confrontational terms and there is even the slightest change of conflict between them, markets immediately respond, as this is their nature since capital is frightened first.

Now a government has come to power in Iran which is drawing lines for seasoned managers and established capital and which in its first direct exposure to the world made such a blunder that it united Europe and others against itself. So alarming was this international alignment that it has put the wise men of the state to work. Even if you told the story to a blind man, he would tell you that capital and investors are frightened. Capital starts to flee. Technocrats become fearful. Anyone who can, flees. The most natural consequence of this is that stock transactions halt.

The rights course of action is for the government to return stability to the markets, provide confidence, and prevent the flight of capital and collapse of the market. And just as he implicitly professed his mistake in sending a double-urgent bill to the Parliament to create a two-price system for gasoline, the president must now show through deeds – as slogans will not effect the markets if they do the masses - that the slogans he aired during his campaign were for the purpose of mounting the presidential horse, and that no one now intends to “raise an elephant”, as the Persian saying goes, that is to provide what is impossible to give.

Kayhan’s argument is similar to what has been going on in Iran’s civil aviation industry. We have taken a confrontational position towards the United States and the US has imposed economic sanctions against us. As a result, we do not get our needed spare parts and as a result have to purchase second hand and obsolete Russian aircraft. They crash and kill their passengers. In return, you subpoena the officials of the civil aviation administration announce to the nation that these events happened because the Minister had decorated his office. These lullabies were worked in the past but now the kids have grown up and no longer get scared or fall asleep that easily.

The second news is that last Saturday Ali Larijani [Iran’s chief negotiator at the nuclear talks with Europe] spoke of the history of Iran’s agreement with the United States to build a research nuclear reactor in Tehran. In his words: “About 40 years ago America signed an agreement with Iran to provide it with a nuclear research reactor in Tehran. The reactor was built. The agreement also provided for the supply of its fuel which was paid for by Iran. As you see, today’s claims by the Europeans and the West that Iran does not need nuclear plants is a major contradiction with what they themselves agreed to some 40 years ago.”

This is another of those shaggy dog stories that if told at a diplomatic meeting will only bring laughter to the listeners. The response is simple and goes like this.

The previous regime of Iran which could not only get research reactors, but even the facilities and perhaps even the bomb itself, was an ally of the United States, and allied to it to be the gendarme of the Persian Gulf, the owner of the three Persian Gulf islands [of Abu Musa, Greater and Lesser Tomb], the government that forced Saddam Hussain to sign the 1975 agreement and to possess nuclear weapons. When I say he intended to be an ally of the United States I am referring to the memoirs of the Minister of his Court, Assadollah Alam who writes that the Monarch was frequently at pain with Americans and their suggestions, and even used harsh and offensive words when referring to Henry Kissinger or Richard Nixon, who were his friends and allies, let alone when speaking of Kennedy and Johnson, the democrats, in private. In public however, he was flexible with them. He followed this approach to promote his national agenda being a neighbor of the red superpower.

So today what do the policies and achievements of that regime have to do with a regime that calls for the death of America on a daily basis. Iran’s politicians of today, act in exactly the opposite way. In public they denounce the West, while in private they show flexibility to them. If the nuclear industry is as important to Iran as you claim it is, then you must exercise prudence and shorten your slogans to achieve your goals. In the words of a Persian poet, “first get power, and then do what you please.”

I think our politicians must learn that life in the information age is fundamentally different than that during Fatali Shah’s days [reference to the last century]. Among the differences is that you cannot rule through deception, even though experience has shown that you can do it for a while. You must accept that with the increase in population, the number of people who will blindly accept your slogans is diminishing while the number of those who are researching is increasing. You cannot simply look at the former group and ignore the latter.

It makes me happy that the recent elections proved that people can recognize a snake even though it is presented as a friendlier reptile, as the Persian saying goes. If things were otherwise, Ali Larijani would have been our president today!

I would like to end this piece with a news item that hit the Iranian press two days ago. The Islamic Republic News Agency wrote that “US President George Bush issued a warning to states that support terrorism.” The term that was used for “states that support terrorism” is so distorted in its translation, and intentionally, that the reader cannot relate to the countries that the American president is referring. Persian newspapers have used the word “terror” in their Persian versions, but the news agency used a Persian equivalent that is new and unfamiliar, thus hiding the meaning and the message. This translation also reduces the weight of the message. So if Persian readers miss the message of the occupant of the White House, which are the countries that support terrorism, and the meaning of his speech, which implies that his country may be entering a new phase in its war with Iran and Syria, with possible new plans against them, then this type of newscasting by the news agency is nothing more than burying our heads in the snow and pretending that nobody can see us. But it bears its consequences regardless.
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Liberty Now !

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is shameless accusing me of being on the side of islamo-fascists!

considering you don't even have the guts to accuse your own x-president of that.

we've all been a victim of mr. carter's stupid (not to mention fascist) administration and the islamo-fascists he helped (along with EU) into power.

we've all suffered a great deal because of all that mess. so much suffering you'll never begin to understand.

if you can't sympathize with the people of iran, you are not qualified as an activist here. at least in my mind.

go ahead enlighten us with your war plans. and blame our nation for whatever went wrong in past 2 decades or so!

the people of iran deserve to be blown up, because they have no means to clean up carter & his EU masters' MESSSSSSSSSSSSS!

how convinient!
Paayande Iran
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:32 pm    Post subject: review Reply with quote

another review on this speech:

Tehran: US Encircling Iran
Farhad Mahdavi


Concurrent with George Bush’s talk on terrorism last week, which is in preparation for the manifesto for 21st century wars with Iran as its epicenter, information about Iran’s nuclear warhead is put at the disposal of major powers. The list of economic pressures too is being prepared. And the plan to exert economic controls through the dollar is also being drafted. It is reported that millions of dollars are being spent to install a radar network across the north borders of Iran. These issues, i.e. US propaganda against Iran are on the rise which through various military and financial measures are tightening the leash against Iran.

Bush’s words at the Ronald Reagan International Trade Center in Washington DC on October 6th, 2005 is nothing but a war manifesto for the 21st century. His words, which were only published in one Persian language newspaper and its summary appeared in Emrouz website, is the military doctrine of the neocons that was read out by Bush under the guise of religion. In his talk, Iran is mentioned directly and indirectly several times. Iran is mentioned as a large Middle Eastern country that must be overcome and used against China and Russia. So once again, the goal is not Iran but the control of Central Asia, about whom it has been said: whoever controls Central Asia, controls the world.

Former president Khatami sees the whole of Iran’s survival at stake and the recent political developments in Iran may be interpreted as Tehran’s awareness of this manifesto for crusading wars, whose central point is one sentence: The lethal ideology of Islamic extremism, the big challenge of this millennium.

In this war manifesto of the neocons, there is explicit reference to Iran’s missile program and US’s measures to stop it. A goal on which rests the most extensive American propaganda effort. According to Entekhab website, Diplomats and analysts have said that the US has informed other countries of what it terms to be Iran’s nuclear weapons activities. According to French AFP news agency from Vienna, these diplomats say the reports include research by Iran to carry a nuclear warhead and detonate it at an altitude where its impact would be at its maximum.

This news, which was first reported by Wall Street Journal described Iran’s efforts to arm a Shahab-3 missile with such a device. The US asserts that the project is being followed by the Passdaran Revolutionary Guards.

Another part of the manifesto contains a list of economic pressures which have been discussed with US President’s senior economic advisers. Iranian right wing hardliners are pursuing a harmonized policy about these reports and measures. Baztab website, said to belong to former Passdaran commander Mohsen Rezai, writes that US economic pressures are planned to be through the US Dollar. According to the site, the US intends to control Iran’s financial activities, under the guise of money laundering and counterfeit currency. Even now, the website claims, the US is completely monitoring Iran’s foreign exchange activities that take place through Swiss banks, which are carried out by the US Treasury Department.

Iran’s student news agency, ISNA, recently reported that the US had been installing new radars in the Republic of Azerbaijan close to the Iranian border. According to the report, the US has provided the Azerbaijan government with millions of dollars to install a radar system near the town of Baku. One of the radars is said to be as close as 20 kilometers from the Iranian border.
Paayande Iran
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is shameless accusing me of being on the side of islamo-fascists!

Ah Liberty, you still don't get it....it is you who causes others to wonder.

This is why I asked you to think about what you post as comment.

Articles like the one you just posted are interesting...and good insight into the IRI propaganda machine.

And that's totally separate from your own comments and methodology that are completely suspect on their own.

Question is, do you agree with the article you posted?? And if so or not...why?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"this is shameless accusing me of being on the side of islamo-fascists!

considering you don't even have the guts to accuse your own x-president of that. "

Why would I when there's no proof that he ever was? ....you've offered more proof than he in any case....otherwise I wouldn't question your intent.

You parrot the IRI so often....like clockwork.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam Ereli, Deputy Spokesman
Washington, DC
October 11, 2005

Joint Statement of the United States of America and the Kyrgyz Republic on the Presence of the U.S. Military in the Region

Following is the text of a joint statement issued by the United States of America and the Kyrgyz Republic on the Presence of the U.S. Military in the Region.

Kyrgyzstan understands the need to resolve urgently the military and political situation in Afghanistan, to contain the sources of terrorism and to create peaceful conditions for the social, economic and democratic development of the country.

In this regard, the Government of the Kyrgyz Republic recognizes the important contribution of the international anti-terrorist Coalition, located at the Ganci Airbase, in strengthening regional stability. The Kyrgyz side will continue to take part in these and other joint efforts of the international community to contend with modern-day challenges and threats to security.

We support the presence of Coalition Forces in the Kyrgyz Republic until the mission of fighting terrorism in Afghanistan is completed, a mission supported by the United Nations.

The governments of the United States and the Kyrgyz Republic express their readiness to review the transparency of investments made for the use of the Manas Airport and at the same time to discuss other organizational and technical questions.

Regarding its domestic policy, Kyrgyzstan intends to continue its orientation toward strengthening democratic principles and carrying out a decisive battle against corruption in order to create the necessary conditions for sustainable development.


Tuesday, October 11, 2005 -- GLOBAL SECURITY NEWSWIRE Today’s Global Security Newswire is now available: http://www.nti.org



The only real constraints on terrorists are the resources at their disposal to kill, maim and terrify innocent civilian populations. ...

Their possession of WMD has truly been said to represent the sum of all our fears. -- --Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer.

U.S. Offered Iran Intelligence Briefings Before IAEA Meeting http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2005_10_11.html#CDA9FCA7

Kazakhstan Eliminates Nuclear Weapon-Usable Uranium http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2005_10_11.html#37D14D7C

U.K. Intelligence Identifies WMD Program Supporters http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2005_10_11.html#0096D418

Interview With Kubat Otorbaev of Radio Liberty and Sultan Jumagulov of the BBC
Kyrgyz Service

Secretary Condoleezza Rice
Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan
October 11, 2005


QUESTION: (Via Kyrgyz Interpreter) Economic and political relations between
Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan have cooled off after Kyrgyzstan offered a temporary
refuge for Uzbek asylum seekers and helped to create conditions for sending
them to a third country. Some are even talking about Tashkent's pressure on
Bishkek, and if Kyrgyzstan agrees to move the base in Karshi-Khanabad to Manas,
the Kyrgyz-Uzbek relations might be irreparably damaged. Therefore, it looks
like Kyrgyzstan is finding itself between two fires trying to fulfill its
international commitments and good neighbor commitments. Is the U.S. Government
considering this situation in developing its foreign policy?

SECRETARY RICE: (Responding in English) Well, our view is that countries that
fulfill their international responsibilities are the ones that the
international system respects and ultimately rewards. Uzbekistan is not
fulfilling its international responsibilities at this point and everyone knows
that. And Uzbekistan is losing support throughout Europe, certainly with the
United States, and that cannot be good for the people of Uzbekistan. So I think
Kyrgyzstan is the one that is in the strongest position here because Kyrgyzstan
is acting as a responsible citizen. There will be economic and political
support for Kyrgyzstan from many countries.

But I want to be very clear: We want Kyrgyzstan to have good relations with its
neighbors, good relations with Russia, good relations with China, good
relations in the region. We have good relations with those countries and we
hope that Kyrgyzstan will, too. There is nothing about having good relations
with the United States that suggests you have to choose to have bad relations
with your neighbors. You should have good relations with your neighbors.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liberty Now ! wrote:

considering you don't even have the guts to accuse your own x-president of that.

we've all been a victim of mr. carter's stupid (not to mention fascist) administration and the islamo-fascists he helped (along with EU) into power.

go ahead enlighten us with your war plans. and blame our nation for whatever went wrong in past 2 decades or so!

the people of iran deserve to be blown up, because they have no means to clean up carter & his EU masters' MESSSSSSSSSSSSS!

how convinient!

Liberty Now !
Oppenheimer is valuable member of ActivistChat with good contributions to the site, please avoid personal attack and try to make constructive discussion and state facts.
" have the guts to accuse your own x-president of that. "
"go ahead enlighten us with your war plans."
This is not a good way to treat our fellow ActivistChat member no matter how angry you are.
Please treat each other respectfully in every discussion no matter how much we disagree.
Please don't accuse each other.

Last edited by cyrus on Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

believe me cyrus jan, I'm trying.

I've been interrogated by IRI intelligence before, and the way this guy is bashing at me, reminds me of those interrogations. if he's not an intelligence service officer he's acting it damn well. and if he is, then he's not very good at it.

anyhow, I said before that I don't want anything to do with oppie, if only he could leave me alone. but he wont.

he just loves me so much. can't get enough of the arguments. lol
Paayande Iran
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"go ahead enlighten us with your war plans. and blame our nation for whatever went wrong in past 2 decades or so! "

I posed a possibility of how the regime could be castrated in totality without massive loss of life resulting, if, and I do mean IF war happens.

I posed it simply because I do sympathise with the Iranian people, who are being put at grave risk by the IRI regime that they themselves brought into being...for without the people, the regime would not have stayed in power more than a year....but the mullahs promised Utopia....and followed it with the crackdown on all dissent...terrorizing the people into submission for the most part, and killing off the opposition that hadn't already left to other countries.

A lot transpired that had nothing at all to do with the Brits, or the US, or Russia or any other nation....this is now, and has been consistantly your primary blind spot in all of your posts....you pass it off as my "blaming your nation" yet fortunately you are in the small minority of Iranians who cannot take responsibility for the tragedy that has befallen Persia.

Islamo Facism, Islamic fundementalist extremeism (whatever you wish to define it as) has existed in Iran for centuries...the West didn't create this...and this is the point Cyrus was trying to make to you....that no nation if free of mistake.

You blame the west for creating terrorism...when the truth is that terrorism has been around and documented since the age of the Pharoes

Here, let me give you something to chew on....a real old truth....buried for a long time before it was discovered and translated.

Back to Ancient History Sourcebook |
Ancient History Sourcebook:
The Precepts of Ptah-Hotep, c. 2200 BCE

Precepts of the prefect, the lord Ptah-hotep,
under the Majesty of the King of the South and North,
Assa, living eternally forever.
The prefect, the feudal lord Ptah-hotep, says: O Ptah with the two
crocodiles, my lord, the progress of age changes into senility. Decay falls
upon man and decline takes the place of youth. A vexation weighs upon him
every day; sight fails, the ear becomes deaf; his strength dissolves without
ceasing. The mouth is silent, speech fails him; the mind decays, remembering
not the day before. The whole body suffers. That which is good becomes evil;
taste completely disappears. Old age makes a man altogether miserable; the
nose is stopped up, breathing no more from exhaustion. Standing or sitting
there is here a condition of . . . Who will cause me to have authority to
speak, that I may declare to him the words of those who have heard the
counsels of former days? And the counsels heard of the gods, who will give
me authority to declare them? Cause that it be so and that evil be removed
from those that are enlightened; send the double . . . The majesty of this
god says: Instruct him in the sayings of former days. It is this which
constitutes the merit of the children of the great. All that which makes the
soul equal penetrates him who hears it, and that which it says produces no
Beginning of the arrangement of the good sayings, spoken by the noble lord,
the divine father, beloved of Ptah, the son of the king, the first-born of
his race, the prefect and feudal lord Ptah-hotep, so as to instruct the
ignorant in the knowledge of the arguments of the good sayings. It is
profitable for him who hears them, it is a loss to him who shall transgress
them. He says to his son:
Be not arrogant because of that which you know; deal with the ignorant as
with the learned; for the barriers of art are not closed, no artist being in
possession of the perfection to which he should aspire. But good words are
more difficult to find than the emerald, for it is by slaves that that is
discovered among the rocks of pegmatite.
If you find a disputant while he is hot, and if he is superior to you in
ability, lower the hands, bend the back, do not get into a passion with him.
As he will not let you destroy his words, it is utterly wrong to interrupt
him; that proclaims that you are incapable of keeping yourself calm, when
you are contradicted. If then you have to do with a disputant while he is
hot, imitate one who does not stir. You have the advantage over him if you
keep silence when he is uttering evil words. "The better of the two is he
who is impassive," say the bystanders, and you are right in the opinion of
the great.
If you find a disputant while he is hot, do not despise him because you are
not of the same opinion. Be not angry against him when he is wrong; away
with such a thing. He fights against himself; require him not further to
flatter your feelings. Do not amuse yourself with the spectacle which you
have before you; it is odious, it is mean, it is the part of a despicable
soul so to do. As soon as you let yourself be moved by your feelings, combat
this desire as a thing that is reproved by the great.
If you have, as leader, to decide on the conduct of a great number of men,
seek the most perfect
manner of doing so that your own conduct may be without reproach. Justice is
great, invariable, and assured; it has not been disturbed since the age of
Ptah. To throw obstacles in the way of the laws is to open the way before
violence. Shall that which is below gain the upper hand, if the unjust does
not attain to the place of justice? Even he who says: I take for myself, of
my own free-will; but says not: I take by virtue of my authority. The
limitations of justice are invariable; such is the instruction which every
man receives from his father.
Inspire not men with fear, else Ptah will fight against you in the same
manner. If any one asserts that he lives by such means, Ptah will take away
the bread from his mouth; if any one asserts that he enriches himself
thereby, Ptah says: I may take those riches to myself. If any one asserts
that he beats others, Ptah will end by reducing him to impotence. Let no one
inspire men with fear; this is the will of Ptah. Let one provide sustenance
for them in the lap of peace; it will then be that they will freely give
what has been torn from them by terror.
If you are among the persons seated at meat in the house of a greater man
than yourself, take that which he gives you, bowing to the ground. Regard
that which is placed before you, but point not at it; regard it not
frequently; he is a blameworthy person who departs from this rule. Speak not
to the great man more than he requires, for one knows not what may be
displeasing to him. Speak when he invites you and your worth will be
pleasing. As for the great man who has plenty of means of existence, his
conduct is as he himself wishes. He does that which pleases him; if he
desires to repose, he realizes his intention. The great man stretching forth
his hand does that to which other men do not attain. But as the means of
existence are under the will of Ptah, one can not rebel against it.
If you are one of those who bring the messages of one great man to another,
conform yourself exactly to that wherewith he has charged you; perform for
him the commission as he has enjoined you. Beware of altering in speaking
the offensive words which one great person addresses to another; he who
perverts the trustfulness of his way, in order to repeat only what produces
pleasure in the words of every man, great or small, is a detestable person.
If you are a farmer, gather the crops in the field which the great Ptah has
given you, do not boast in the house of your neighbors; it is better to make
oneself dreaded by one's deeds. As for him who, master of his own way of
acting, being all-powerful, seizes the goods of others like a crocodile in
the midst even of watchment, his children are an object of malediction, of
scorn, and of hatred on account of it, while his father is grievously
distressed, and as for the mother who has borne him, happy is another rather
than herself. But a man becomes a god when he is chief of a tribe which has
confidence in following him.
If you abase yourself in obeying a superior, your conduct is entirely good
before Ptah. Knowing who you ought to obey and who you ought to command, do
not lift up your heart against him. As you know that in him is authority, be
respectful toward him as belonging to him. Wealth comes only at Ptah's own
good-will, and his caprice only is the law; as for him who . . Ptah, who has
created his superiority, turns himself from him and he is overthrown.
Be active during the time of your existence, do no more than is commanded.
Do not spoil the time of your activity; he is a blameworthy person who makes
a bad use of his moments. Do not lose the daily opportunity of increasing
that which your house possesses. Activity produces riches, and riches do not
endure when it slackens.
If you are a wise man, bring up a son who shall be pleasing to Ptah. If he
conforms his conduct to your way and occupies himself with your affairs as
is right, do to him all the good you can; he is your son, a person attached
to you whom your own self has begotten. Separate not your heart from him....
But if he conducts himself ill and transgresses your wish, if he rejects all
counsel, if his mouth goes according to the evil word, strike him on the
mouth in return. Give orders without hesitation to those who do wrong, to
him whose temper is turbulent; and he will not deviate from the straight
path, and there will be no obstacle to interrupt the way.
If you are employed in the larit, stand or sit rather than walk about. Lay
down rules for yourself from the first: not to absent yourself even when
weariness overtakes you. Keep an eye on him who enters announcing that what
he asks is secret; what is entrusted to you is above appreciation, and all
contrary argument is a matter to be rejected. He is a god who penetrates
into a place where no relaxation of the rules is made for the privileged.
If you are with people who display for you an extreme affection, saying:
"Aspiration of my heart, aspiration of my heart, where there is no remedy!
That which is said in your heart, let it be realized by springing up
spontaneously. Sovereign master, I give myself to your opinion. Your name is
approved without speaking. Your body is full of vigor, your face is above
your neighbors." If then you are accustomed to this excess of flattery, and
there be an obstacle to you in your desires, then your impulse is to obey
your passion. But he who . . . according to his caprice, his soul is . . .,
his body is . . . While the man who is master of his soul is superior to
those whom Ptah has loaded with his gifts; the man who obeys his passion is
under the power of his wife.
Declare your line of conduct without reticence; give your opinion in the
council of your lord; while there are people who turn back upon their own
words when they speak, so as not to offend him who has put forward a
statement, and answer not in this fashion: "He is the great man who will
recognize the error of another; and when he shall raise his voice to oppose
the other about it he will keep silence after what I have said."
If you are a leader, setting forward your plans according to that which you
decide, perform perfect actions which posterity may remember, without
letting the words prevail with you which multiply flattery, which excite
pride and produce vanity.
If you are a leader of peace, listen to the discourse of the petitioner. Be
not abrupt with him; that would trouble him. Say not to him: "You have
already recounted this." Indulgence will encourage him to accomplish the
object of his coming. As for being abrupt with the complainant because he
described what passed when the injury was done, instead of complaining of
the injury itself let it not be! The way to obtain a clear explanation is to
listen with kindness.
If you desire to excite respect within the house you enter, for example the
house of a superior, a friend, or any person of consideration, in short
everywhere where you enter, keep yourself from making advances to a woman,
for there is nothing good in so doing. There is no prudence in taking part
in it, and thousands of men destroy themselves in order to enjoy a moment,
brief as a dream, while they gain death, so as to know it. It is a
villainous intention, that of a man who thus excites himself; if he goes on
to carry it out, his mind abandons him. For as for him who is without
repugnance for such an act, there is no good sense at all in him.
If you desire that your conduct should be good and preserved from all evil,
keep yourself from every attack of bad humor. It is a fatal malady which
leads to discord, and there is no longer any existence for him who gives way
to it. For it introduces discord between fathers and mothers, as well as
between brothers and sisters; it causes the wife and the husband to hate
each other; it contains all kinds of wickedness, it embodies all kinds of
wrong. When a man has established his just equilibrium and walks in this
path, there where he makes his dwelling, there is no room for bad humor.
Be not of an irritable temper as regards that which happens at your side;
grumble not over your own affairs. Be not of an irritable temper in regard
to your neighbors; better is a compliment to that which displeases than
rudeness. It is wrong to get into a passion with one's neighbors, to be no
longer master of one's words. When there is only a little irritation, one
creates for oneself an affliction for the time when one will again be cool.
If you are wise, look after your house; love your wife without alloy. Fill
her stomach, clothe her back; these are the cares to be bestowed on her
person. Caress her, fulfil her desires during the time of her existence; it
is a kindness which does honor to its possessor. Be not brutal; tact will
influence her better than violence; her . . . behold to what she aspires, at
what she aims, what she regards. It is that which fixes her in your house;
if you repel her, it is an abyss. Open your arms for her, respond to her
arms; call her, display to her your love.
Treat your dependents well, in so far as it belongs to you to do so; and it
belongs to those whom Ptah has favored. If any one fails in treating his
dependents well it is said: "He is a person . . ." As we do not know the
events which may happen tomorrow, he is a wise person by whom one is well
treated. When there comes the necessity of showing zeal, it will then be the
dependents themselves who say: "Come on, come on," if good treatment has not
quitted the place; if it has quitted it, the dependents are defaulters.
Do not repeat any extravagance of language; do not listen to it; it is a
thing which has escaped from a hasty mouth. If it is repeated, look, without
hearing it, toward the earth; say nothing in regard to it. Cause him who
speaks to you to know what is just, even him who provokes to injustice;
cause that which is just to be done, cause it to triumph. As for that which
is hateful according to the law, condemn it by unveiling it.
If you are a wise man, sitting in the council of your lord, direct your
thought toward that which is wise. Be silent rather than scatter your words.
When you speak, know that which can be brought against you. To speak in the
council is an art, and speech is criticized more than any other labor; it is
contradiction which puts it to the proof.
If you are powerful, respect knowledge and calmness of language. Command
only to direct; to be absolute is to run into evil. Let not your heart be
haughty, neither let it be mean. Do not let your orders remain unsaid and
cause your answers to penetrate; but speak without heat, assume a serious
countenance. As for the vivacity of an ardent heart, temper it; the gentle
man penetrates all obstacles. He who agitates himself all the day long has
not a good moment; and he who amuses himself all the day long keeps not his
fortune. Aim at fulness like pilots; once one is seated another works, and
seeks to obey one's orders.
Disturb not a great man; weaken not the attention of him who is occupied.
His care is to embrace his task, and he strips his person through the love
which he puts into it. That transports men to Ptah, even the love for the
work which they accomplish. Compose then your face even in trouble, that
peace may be with you, when agitation is with . . .These are the people who
succeed in what they desire.
Teach others to render homage to a great man. If you gather the crop for him
among men, cause it to return fully to its owner, at whose hands is your
subsistence. But the gift of affection is worth more than the provisions
with which your back is covered. For that which the great man receives from
you will enable your house to live, without speaking of the maintenance you
enjoy, which you desire to preserve; it is thereby that he extends a
beneficent hand, and that in your home good things are added to good things.
Let your love pass into the heart of those who love you; cause those about
you to be loving and obedient.
If you are a son of the guardians deputed to watch over the public
tranquillity, execute your commission without knowing its meaning, and speak
with firmness. Substitute not for that which the instructor has said what
you believe to be his intention; the great use words as it suits them. Your
part is to transmit rather than to comment upon.
If you are annoyed at a thing, if you are tormented by someone who is acting
within his right, get out of his sight, and remember him no more when he has
ceased to address you.
If you have become great after having been little, if you have become rich
after having been poor, when you are at the head of the city, know how not
to take advantage of the fact that you have reached the first rank, harden
not your heart because of your elevation; you are become only the
administrator, the prefect, of the provisions which belong to Ptah. Put not
behind you the neighbor who is like you; be unto him as a companion.
Bend your back before your superior. You are attached to the palace of the
king; your house is established in its fortune, and your profits are as is
fitting. Yet a man is annoyed at having an authority above himself, and
passes the period of life in being vexed thereat. Although that hurts not
your . . . Do not plunder the house of your neighbors, seize not by force
the goods which are beside you. Exclaim not then against that which you
hear, and do not feel humiliated. It is necessary to reflect when one is
hindered by it that the pressure of authority is felt also by one's
Do not make . . . you know that there are obstacles to the water which comes
to its hinder part, and that there is no trickling of that which is in its
bosom. Let it not . . . after having corrupted his heart.
If you aim at polished manners, call not him whom you accost. Converse with
him especially in such a way as not to annoy him. Enter on a discussion with
him only after having left him time to saturate his mind with the subject of
the conversation. If he lets his ignorance display itself, and if he gives
you all opportunity to disgrace him, treat him with courtesy rather; proceed
not to drive him into a corner; do not . . . the word to him; answer not in
a crushing manner; crush him not; worry him not; in order that in his turn
he may not return to the subject, but depart to the profit of your
Let your countenance be cheerful during the time of your existence. When we
see one departing from the storehouse who has entered in order to bring his
share of provision, with his face contracted, it shows that his stomach is
empty and that authority is offensive to him. Let not that happen to you; it
is . . .
Know those who are faithful to you when you are in low estate. Your merit
then is worth more than those who did you honor. His . . ., behold that
which a man possesses completely. That is of more importance than his high
rank; for this is a matter which passes from one to another. The merit of
one's son is advantageous to the father, and that which he really is, is
worth more than the remembrance of his father's rank.
Distinguish the superintendent who directs from the workman, for manual
labor is little elevated; the inaction of the hands is honorable. If a man
is not in the evil way, that which places him there is the want of
subordination to authority.
If you take a wife, do not . . . Let her be more contented than any of her
fellow-citizens. She will be attached to you doubly, if her chain is
pleasant. Do not repel her; grant that which pleases her; it is to her
contentment that she appreciates your work.
If you hear those things which I have said to you, your wisdom will be fully
advanced. Although they are the means which are suitable for arriving at the
maat, and it is that which makes them precious, their memory would recede
from the mouth of men. But thanks to the beauty of their arrangement in
rhythm all their words will now be carried without alteration over this
earth eternally. That will create a canvass to be embellished, whereof the
great will speak, in order to instruct men in its sayings. After having
listened to them the pupil will become a master, even he who shall have
properly listened to the sayings because he shall have heard them. Let him
win success by placing himself in the first rank; that is for him a position
perfect and durable, and he has nothing further to desire forever. By
knowledge his path is assured, and he is made happy by it on the earth. The
wise man is satiated by knowledge; he is a great man through his own merits.
His tongue is in accord with his mind; just are his lips when he speaks, his
eyes when he gazes, his ears when he hears. The advantage of his son is to
do that which is just without deceiving himself.
To attend therefore profits the son of him who has attended. To attend is
the result of the fact that one has attended. A teachable auditor is formed,
because I have attended. Good when he has attended, good when he speaks, he
who has attended has profited, and it is profitable to attend to him who has
attended. To attend is worth more than anything else, for it produces love,
the good thing that is twice good. The son who accepts the instruction of
his father will grow old on that account. What Ptah loves is that one should
attend; if one attends not, it is abhorrent to Ptah. The heart makes itself
its own master when it attends and when it does not attend; but if it
attends, then his heart is a beneficent master to a man. In attending to
instruction, a man loves what he attends to, and to do that which is
prescribed is pleasant. When a son attends to his father, it is a twofold
joy for both; when wise things are prescribed to him, the son is gentle
toward his master. Attending to him who has attended when such things have
been prescribed to him, he engraves upon his heart that which is approved by
his father; and the recollection of it is preserved in the mouth of the
living who exist upon this earth.
When a son receives the instruction of his father there is no error in all
his plans. Train your son to be a teachable man whose wisdom is agreeable to
the great. Let him direct his mouth according to that which has been said to
him; in the docility of a son is discovered his wisdom. His conduct is
perfect while error carries away the unteachable. Tomorrow knowledge will
support him, while the ignorant will be destroyed.
As for the man without experience who listens not, he effects nothing
whatsoever. He sees knowledge in ignorance, profit in loss; he commits all
kinds of error, always accordingly choosing the contrary of what is
praiseworthy. He lives on that which is mortal, in this fashion. His food is
evil words, whereat he is filled with astonishment. That which the great
know to be mortal he lives upon every day, flying from that which would be
profitable to him, because of the multitude of errors which present
themselves before him every day.
A son who attends is like a follower of Horus; he is happy after having
attended. He becomes great, he arrives at dignity, he gives the same lesson
to his children. Let none innovate upon the precepts of his father; let the
same precepts form his lessons to his children. "Verily," will his children
say to him, "to accomplish what you say works marvels." Cause therefore that
to flourish which is just, in order to nourish your children with it. If the
teachers allow themselves to be led toward evil principles, verily the
people who understand them not will speak accordingly, and that being said
to those who are docile they will act accordingly. Then all the world
considers them as masters and they inspire confidence in the public; but
their glory endures not so long as would please them. Take not away then a
word from the ancient teaching, and add not one; put not one thing in place
of another; beware of uncovering the rebellious ideas which arise in you;
but teach according to the words of the wise. Attend if you wish to dwell in
the mouth of those who shall attend to your words, when you have entered
upon the office of master, that your words may be upon our lips . . . and
that there may be a chair from which to deliver your arguments.
Let your thoughts be abundant, but let your mouth be under restraint, and
you shall argue with the great. Put yourself in unison with the ways of your
master; cause him to say: "He is my son," so that those who shall hear it
shall say "Praise be to her who has borne him to him!" Apply yourself while
you speak; speak only of perfect things; and let the great who shall hear
you say: "Twice good is that which issues from his mouth!"
Do that which your master bids you. Twice good is the precept of his father,
from whom he has issued, from his flesh. What he tells us, let it be fixed
in our heart; to satisfy him greatly let us do for him more than he has
prescribed. Verily a good son is one of the gifts of Ptah, a son who does
even better than he has been told to do. For his master he does what is
satisfactory, putting himself with all his heart on the part of right. So I
shall bring it about that your body shall be healthful, that the Pharaoh
shall be satisfied with you in all circumstances and that you shall obtain
years of life without default. It has caused me on earth to obtain one
hundred and ten years of life, along with the gift of the favor of the
Pharoah among the first of those whom their works have ennobled, satisfying
the Pharoah in a place of dignity.
It is finished, from its beginning to its end, according to that which is
found in writing.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iran’s military threatens to hit U.S. with suicide raids Tue. 11 Oct 2005

Iran Focus

Tehran, Iran, Oct. 11 – A top general of Iran’s elite Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps issued on Tuesday a direct threat to the United States and its allies, warning that the Islamic Republic had identified “all the weak points of our enemies” and has suicide operation volunteers “ready to strike at these sensitive locations” in retaliation to any attack.

“We know all of the enemies’ weak points and what to do against them. Today, we have ready martyrdom-seeking individuals who are ready to strike at these sensitive points”, Brigadier General Mohammad Kossari, who heads the Security Bureau of Iran’s Armed Forces, told the state-owned news agency ILNA.

Kossari said that Iran’s “enemies” were bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan and were looking for a way to escape.

“Enemies of a nuclear Iran could not do a damn thing” to stop the Islamic Republic in its nuclear pursuit, he said.

“If Iran’s nuclear case is not resolved logically through discussions at the [International] Atomic Energy Agency, it is better for Iran to withdraw this organisation. Take note, just like in the [Iran-Iraq war] they cannot do a damn thing”.

The top security official called on leaders of Iran’s neighbouring countries to side with the Islamic Republic so that foreign forces would be forced to leave the region.

He said that Iran’s ambition was to become a regional superpower.
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