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Prince Charles to Explain Islam to American Public ?????????
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Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1166
Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah Cyrus I will, but I'm pretty burnt out at the moment...work and lack of sleep....catch up with it tommorrow if I can.
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Liberty Now !

Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 521

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

have to comment on this one (in the middle of packing lol)

Dianna wasn't murdered for her activism. I think she was detested, harrassed and abandoned for her activism.

She was murdered for marrying a MUSLIM man and carrying a MUSLIM man's child!

don't ever forget that Americans, when being lectured by british royalty about tolerance of Islam!

Paayande Iran
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Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now let me tell you about Naima....come to the states to look for a school to finish studies in English. Good French and Arabic speaking, pretty good English, was asked by my landlord, A Kurdish Muslim, American citizen...state highway engineer to take care of his family while he went back to Kurdistan (still in Saddam's time, this was in Sept 2000)
to "bring his sister back".....I'd been renting from him about 6 months, had never met his wife who was from Egypt, but his kids were always playing in the street, and when he left he asked me to be "a good uncle" to his kids, and try to keep them out of the street if I saw them there.

A reasonable request, and I agreed....One day coming back from work, I saw one of the younger boys sitting on the sidewalk, and a woman's voice calling for him from the back part of the Tri-plex they lived in. Nuri was a bit down, and I asked him what up as I lead him around the back to where the voice was coming from. He said "My dad's not coming back"

Got around the corner and there was this young woman holding a baby and she said thanks for having brought the boy, and asked me if I would hold the baby while she cleaned up. I did.

That's when I saw for the first time the living conditions this father had gone and left his wife and five childeren ages 1-8 in, not just gone out, but out of the country. Leaving Naima to deal with what cannot be described adequately in words, nor did the totality of it immediately register until I noticed when my eyes adjusted to the darkness inside, that the wall which seemed to be moving, actually was....with cockroaches so thick you couldn't put your hand on a surface without crushing five of them, garbage piled knee deep, and a stench that drove me back.

This young lady had tears in her eyes as she turned and said , "please I need your help" I was in a bit of shock, and don't remember exactly what I said then, but I did say something to the effect that she needed to get every one out side. The mother was in a very bad way, I remember describing it later as "catatonic" virtually unresponsive to stimuli, though she would understand Naima when she spoke Arabic.

It's a very long story, and it's bringing back memories I'd rather not dwell on , but once the mom and kids were outside I asked Naima how this situation was possible. She said, "I don't know, this (and she used some Arabic cuss word) father has abandonned his family in these conditions, and no one, not even the poorest in my country would let their pigs live this way, let alone their family."

She went back inside to continue cleaning the kitchen, and here I was still holding this baby, wondering what kind of twilight zone I had just come home from work to.

Then I noticed that there were about a half dozen Bug bombs on the counter top, and I realized what had driven me back outside, other than the stench. Naima indicated that they had been there when she got there.
Meaning this family had not only been left in a state of total filth, but had most likely been living in a poisonous atmosphere, beyond what the stench itself represented.

I got the oldest boy to hold his sister for me, and went in to Naima and said "you must stop". She said "I need to clean this kitchen to make them some food." I pointed to these cans, and said, there are roaches everywhere, and everything is contaminated by poison, You are very brave to try to deal with this situation, but it is impossible for people to live here."

"She said, I know, but what can I do? I must take care of them. I can't leave them, not once I saw how they were living."

This in short Amir, (as I just can't keep on with this...it's way to much for me right now), represents in a nutshell, the best and the worst of Islam all in one place at the same time.


I should backtrack a bit here. First, at the time, I had really no understanding of the Muslim culture except what I learned by talking with a few friends that either had grown up around it, or in general in discussing current events, and from general reading over the years.

Second, the house was at one time remodeled into three seperate apartments, and my landlord's was the rear half of this building. One of my friends lived in the front apartment, and I lived in the basement apartment that was direcly below the front apartment. My kitchen and bath, entrance etc., was on ground level and only the kitchen wall was common to my landlord's place. Fortunately this house had a main load bearing wall (this kitchen wall) that ran up from the basement foundation.

Third, SantaFe sits at 7000ft elevation (exactly the same elevation and lattitude as Kabul Afghanistan) and in the 35 years I've lived here, not I nor anyone I've ever met has ever had a problem with cockroaches....it's just too high in altitude for them to be indigenous to the area, which is a high, semi arid environment (a lot like Afghanistan in geographic attributes, with mountains nearby at 12-13 thousand ft.)

Generally in America, there's a common sense that "a man's home is his castle", so we repect other's privacy. I never in the 6 months I'd been there, had reason to think there was a problem next door.
I had been dealing with a minor roach infestation in my kitchen for about 2 months, using the usual bait and such, and I'd mentioned to the landlord that there was a problem, since it seemed to be getting worse, despite the methods I'd taken , which should have solved the problem in my apt. He had told me, "I'll take care of it when I get back."
Well, when I walked around the corner that day into the "twilight zone"
of my landlord's dwelling, I knew instantly where my "minor" problem was coming from, and why I hadn't been able to put a dent in it.


Naima and I discussed options a bit, she was a guest in an apt filled with other folks from Tunisia and had no room herself, I said to her that they could stay in my apt. if need be, and that she should consider using my place to cook for them. The landlord, Adnan, had left her money to by groceries she told me, but explained to me as she accepted the use of my home to cook, that the mother of the kids, Fatima, could not accept my hospitality (after she had talked with her).
She said, "Fatima cannot accept help from any man except her husband, in our culture it would be Haram."

It had been a pretty heated exchange in Arabic (which I didn't understand, but I could grasp the fact that Naima had been very adamant about the situation with Fatima, who kept shaking her head "no".

Naima said she was worried for Fatima, as she seemed weak, and had not taken any sustenance, no water or food. At that point I had noticed she was not acting normal, but Adnan had told me before he left that his wife was "ill" and that he was going to bring his sister back to help take care of her, and that this girl, Naima, was going to be there till he got back, in a "couple weeks".

He had told Naima that the place would be cleaned up for her, but he lied. the 800sqft place they lived in was the exact coverage listed on one can "bugbomb", apparently he'd used at least half a dozen.

An impossible and dangerous living situation.

"Naima, they own this property, I simply rent from them. If she has a problem with me, I can grab a sleeping bag and sleep in my truck. These kids need some shelter now. Does she grasp what is happening here?"

"I have tried, she will not accept your help."

"Naima, You asked for my help, and I can in ordinary circumstances understand this custom you refer to, but understand this, that as a Buddhist, I can't turn my back on this. Also this kind of neglect once a person is witness to it, must be reported."

She freeked a bit, "Please, she has told me she is afraid of the police, Adnan told her they would take her kids."

"Adnan has not only placed his kids and his wife at risk here, but yourself as well. Abanndoning them when he should have found them adequate and safe shelter himself before leaving. It is ultimately his responsibility as the father. Look, is there no one within the Muslim community here that can provide shelter till he gets back?" (I had heard about the Muslim concept of "sanctuary")

" I just came here from Tunisia two weeks ago to look at possibly attending university here , I don't know anyone to ask."

(At this, I realized that Adnan had put her at more than just physical risk, as being here on a tourist visa, one cannot accept work...as she wasn't a student yet, she couldn't have had a student visa.)

" Did Adnan offer to pay you to take care of them?" "Yes, but he only left me enough to by things for them. What he has done is Haram, I won't take his money, I do this for Fatima!"

"Ok", and I smiled, "you're a good person Naima, don't worry, let me make a phone call or two to some folks that have helped me in the past when I was homeless, and see what I can do."

4:30pm on a Friday, calling a few local community service orgs, the only person I could get hold of was a counseler that worked with "Open Hands", and she couldn't offer much in the way of help on short notice, though she said she'd try and come by the next day.
I grabbed some apples and oranges from my house and walked back, handing them to the kids, and then I walked up to Fatima who was also sitting outside, and not looking at her directly, peeled this big fat juicy orange in front of her, and then handed it to her. She simply turned her head away in refusal. Naima came over and flat yelled at Fatima in Arabic, Fatima shook her head, Naima said something very calmly to Fatima, and Fatima looked at Naima, and then took the orange from my hand. I walked away without a word.

Naima came up to me a minute later and said, " I don't belive you just did that."...grinning. "What did you say to her?" "I told her she was a fool and wan't thinking of her children, that you had offered sanctuary, and she was insulting you." "So what did you say to her to get her to accept the orange? Naima smiled and said, " I told her it was not Haram to accept from a man that which was made by Allah."

"Ok, then tell her that Allah also provided water to clean up with, and that you will use my bathroom to get all these kids bathed properly, and that goes for Fatima too. I have no money to get a hotel room fot them, and I have very little food, I'm waiting to get paid this next week. Give me enough from what Adnan gave you to buy groceries, and while I am gone, get them all cleaned up, there's plenty of soap and shampoo. I made a few calls, and hopefully this one lady I spoke with will be able to come by tommorrow if she gets the chance. In the meantime while I'm gone, do what you can to convince her to use my place as shelter."

"Thank you. She said. "Naima, we have a saying here in New Mexico, -Mi casa es su' casa." She looked a bit puzzled. "My house is your house." I translated.

With that she gave me a hug, and I went off to get groceries.

-to be continued....
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liberty Now ! wrote:
have to comment on this one (in the middle of packing lol)

Dianna wasn't murdered for her activism. I think she was detested, harrassed and abandoned for her activism.

She was murdered for marrying a MUSLIM man and carrying a MUSLIM man's child!

don't ever forget that Americans, when being lectured by british royalty about tolerance of Islam!


Liberty: Good luck with your move. Hope wherever you are going you would still have access to the computer and would keep in touch with the rest of us.........
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you get a chance, do me a favor, and read Robert Spencer's book called "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam"...I think that is an eye opener for many people like you. I agree with Amir 100% if a group of moslems have decided to be peaceful, it is because they are not following what mohamad did or said, they are deviating from the strict islam and have chosen to interpret the rules differently or not followed at all.
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Liberty Now !

Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 521

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks dear Blank. very sweet of you. although seems you don't want me to get over my addiction, eh? lol

I agree with your point and amir's, on "democratic muslims". it took generations to impose persian culture on barbaric sahara islamist invaders and khalifs. Iran actually had a great role in toning down islam. the ancient zoroastrian spirituality with its utmost respect for life, humanity, art and culture had almost replaced islam...when all of a sudden the Green Belt $hit happened!

you know what's wrong with western politics?

never mind. lol
Paayande Iran
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Location: SantaFe, New Mexico

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blank,....people like me, huh? Just what do you even know about me? To use such a generalization in reference to people is to try and tag them with a stereotypical label, just as you do when you call Muslims "ragheads".....and don't tell me you are simply refering to mullahs when you use the term. I know better. And for that matter, what makes you think you are an expert on Muslim culture?, Or Spencer is?

This is a post in a long running debate with a fellow calls himself "American visitor" on this forum, in the general discussion catagory with some 80 posts regarding a speech given by a mullah.

It's worth repeating here, because this topic is going in that general vein anyway.....


Viewpoint: The global voices reclaiming Islam
By Ziauddin Sardar
Presenter, BBC Two's Battle for Islam

Ziauddin Sardar, travelling around several Muslim countries, finds that thinkers, activists, political leaders and ordinary Muslims across the globe are refusing to be defined by the ideology of violence and intolerance, but their responses are diverse.

Pakistani-born Sardar discussed "enlightened moderation" with President Pervez Musharraf
This has been a terrible year to be a Muslim.

But, revolted by what is being perpetrated in the name of Islam, the Muslim world is bringing a whole range of new debates to the fore.

For decades the core debate in the Muslim world was about establishing an ideological "Islamic state" and returning to the Sharia, the historical body of Islamic law.

This debate, often led by so-called "Islamic movements", produced a narrow, intolerant, obscurantist, illiberal, brutal and confrontational interpretation of Islam. It is this interpretation that gave rise to what we now know as "Islamic fundamentalism".

But the fixed simplistics of fundamentalists never were the whole of the debate - even though the fundamentalists shout the loudest and dominate the globe through violent expression.

Sharia debate

Now, fundamentalism is being challenged by emerging and alternative visions of Islam, each taking shape in different ways in different countries.

Pakistan was founded as the first modern Islamic state. But it was only in 1978 under the military regime of General Zia ul Haq that Sharia was made the law of the land.


Zia Sardar presents a 90-minute documentary
Monday, 5 September, 2005
BBC Two, 2100 BST
What followed was a series of cases where the implementation of the law acquired a notorious reputation for practical injustice, especially towards women.

And it is women who are really standing up to this law.

The essence of the argument against the Sharia is much more than the fact that its interpretation and application is illiberal and contrary to contemporary ideas of human rights.

The fundamentalist position is that the Koran is the source of all legislation in Islam and therefore the Sharia is an immutable body of sacred law.

It is this concept itself that is now being challenged.

Sharia, it is being widely argued, is not divine but a "jurists' law", that was formulated and socially constructed during the early phase of Islamic history.

It can be changed, modified and reformulated - in its entirety.

Thus the Sharia, as an inherited body of rulings and precedent, is being reclaimed in Pakistan.

Muslim scholars are demanding the same right as their forebears to investigate the sources for alternative interpretations, new ways of framing and operating precepts and law.

Activists' agenda

We can see this activism not just in Pakistan but also in Morocco.

In Morocco an entirely recast family law aspect of Sharia has been produced by Islamic scholars.

It was promulgated by the King in response to widespread public demonstrations by women and, when published, became an instant best-seller.

What might the younger generation bring to Islam?
While it has its opponents, including women, its impeccable Islamic intellectual credentials - advancing the case for gender equality, poverty eradication, economic advancement and the development of free expression through civil society - are now the agenda of debate.

The irony is that neither Pakistan nor Morocco are democracies: one a thinly veiled military regime, the other a near-absolute monarchy.

But the activist proponents of this alternative interpretation of Islam are clear that it can never be fully realised without democracy; indeed that democracy is an essential hallmark of a genuine Islamic society.

Separation from state

Indonesia has the world's largest Muslim population.

Eight years ago, it threw off 30 years of dictatorship backed by the military. Democracy has led to a great outpouring of new thinking.

The reality of the Muslim world is its immense diversity

Zia Sardar
Established organisations such as Mohammadiyah and new civic society organisations such as the Liberal Islam Network - which have followings in the tens of millions - are revising the conventional views of Islam and the state.

In seeking an interpretation of Islam that is both authentic and moderate, liberal, tolerant, open and democratic, they stress the importance of separation between religion and state.

And thus they come to a vision of modernity for Muslims that is rooted in, and inspired by, Islam, yet does not lay claim to being an infallible expression of religion and therefore closed to debate.

It is these agents of civil society that are setting the pace of change.

Diverse solutions

The demands they make on governments are producing a response. But it is no longer a case of seeking one solution.

There is a diversity of responses according to the particular circumstances of different countries, with different histories and different experiences of modernising and modernity.

Countries visited for the documentary

Find out more with our clickable map
The extremists have one all-embracing, all-constraining ideology.

But the reality of the Muslim world is its immense diversity.

The new ideas battling for the soul of Islam have a clear set of common principles but they are varied and must be heard in their own context and place.

A journey around the populous periphery of the Muslim world clearly demonstrates that the extremists are not only a minority but that the fossilised traditionalism from which they derive their legitimacy is also on the retreat.

There is a new air of optimism and confidence in many places that an Islam that is moderate, tolerant and democratic not only should - but will - actually be the future.

This new spirit, and the new ideas it is producing, is not tentative.

But it would be too soon to assert that the ideas are carrying all before them and have secured their dominance.

It is, however, beyond question that to understand the changes taking place in the Muslim world, and appreciate how Islam is being reformed, one has to listen to these voices from the edge.
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