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Pope says science too narrow to explain creation

 
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AmirN



Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject: Pope says science too narrow to explain creation Reply with quote

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070411/ts_nm/pope_evolution_dc_2;_ylt=AoyM3klba.wYEb.sbTO0rAgiANEA

Pope says science too narrow to explain creation

By Tom Heneghan,
Religion Editor Wed Apr 11, 2:18 PM ET
PARIS (Reuters) -

Pope Benedict, elaborating his views on evolution for the first time as Pontiff, says science has narrowed the way life's origins are understood and Christians should take a broader approach to the question.

The Pope also says the Darwinist theory of evolution is not completely provable because mutations over hundreds of thousands of years cannot be reproduced in a laboratory.

But Benedict, whose remarks were published on Wednesday in Germany in the book "Schoepfung und Evolution" (Creation and Evolution), praised scientific progress and did not endorse creationist or "intelligent design" views about life's origins.

Those arguments, proposed mostly by conservative Protestants and derided by scientists, have stoked recurring battles over the teaching of evolution in the United States. Some European Christians and Turkish Muslims have recently echoed these views.

"Science has opened up large dimensions of reason ... and thus brought us new insights," Benedict, a former theology professor, said at the closed-door seminar with his former doctoral students last September that the book documents.

"But in the joy at the extent of its discoveries, it tends to take away from us dimensions of reason that we still need. Its results lead to questions that go beyond its methodical canon and cannot be answered within it," he said.

"The issue is reclaiming a dimension of reason we have lost," he said, adding that the evolution debate was actually about "the great fundamental questions of philosophy - where man and the world came from and where they are going."

NOT BY FAITH ALONE

Speculation about Benedict's views on evolution have been rife ever since a former student and close advisor, Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, published an article in 2005 that seemed to align the Church with the "intelligent design" view.

"Intelligent design" (ID) argues that some forms of life are too complex to have evolved randomly, as Charles Darwin proposed in his 1859 book "The Origin of Species." It says a higher intelligence must have done this but does not name it as God.

Scientists denounce this as a disguised form of creationism, the view that God created the world just as the Bible says. U.S. courts have ruled both creationism and ID are religious views that cannot be taught in public school science classes there.

In the book, Benedict defended what is known as "theistic evolution," the view held by Roman Catholic, Orthodox and mainline Protestant churches that God created life through evolution and religion and science need not clash over this.

"I would not depend on faith alone to explain the whole picture," he remarked during the discussion held at the papal summer palace in Castel Gandolfo outside Rome.

He also denied using a "God-of-the-gaps" argument that sees divine intervention whenever science cannot explain something.

"It's not as if I wanted to stuff the dear God into these gaps - he is too great to fit into such gaps," he said in the book that publisher Sankt Ulrich Verlag in Augsburg said would later be translated into other languages.

AGAINST ATHEISM

Schoenborn, who published his own book on evolution last month, has said he and the German-born Pontiff addressed these issues now because many scientists use Darwin's theory to argue the random nature of evolution negated any role for God.

That is a philosophical or ideological conclusion not supported by facts, they say, because science cannot prove who or what originally created the universe and life in it.

"Both popular and scientific texts about evolution often say that 'nature' or 'evolution' has done this or that," Benedict said in the book which included lectures from theologian Schoenborn, two philosophers and a chemistry professor.

"Just who is this 'nature' or 'evolution' as (an active) subject? It doesn't exist at all!" the Pope said.
Benedict argued that evolution had a rationality that the theory of purely random selection could not explain.

"The process itself is rational despite the mistakes and confusion as it goes through a narrow corridor choosing a few positive mutations and using low probability," he said.

"This ... inevitably leads to a question that goes beyond science ... where did this rationality come from?" he asked. Answering his own question, he said it came from the "creative reason" of God.
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I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage

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AmirN



Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the book, Benedict defended what is known as "theistic evolution," the view held by Roman Catholic, Orthodox and mainline Protestant churches that God created life through evolution and religion and science need not clash over this.


Interesting retreat. Has evolutionary theory come so far, and become so irrefutable, that it is now demanding acceptance, even from God’s representatives on Earth? Apparently it has.

Of course, this delineates the old decree “if you can’t beat them, join them.” Since evolution has proven so strong, theists have retreated to the stance that evolution was God’s means to creation. It is quite comical to see them adopt this antagonistic viewpoint now as the means to their childish explanation.

Quote:
"Both popular and scientific texts about evolution often say that 'nature' or 'evolution' has done this or that," Benedict said


Oh yes, how presumptuous of them! After all, no religious text exists that has made claims that “God” or “Divinity” has done this or that.

Quote:
That is a philosophical or ideological conclusion not supported by facts, they say, because science cannot prove who or what originally created the universe and life in it.


Facts?…Proof?… What is becoming of religion?!?!…Could it be that religious figures now demand facts and proof, instead of faith? The Pope must stand trial for this heresy.

Interesting how “facts” and “proof” are demanded when it is convenient.

Although, the facts and the proof are present for all to see. They have been there for over a century, and they keep mounting.

Quote:
"Just who is this 'nature' or 'evolution' as (an active) subject? It doesn't exist at all!" the Pope said.


Just who is this “God” or “Divinity” as (an active) subject? It doesn’t exist at all!

I find it very interesting that theologians retreat to reason and skepticism when it comes to refuting any subject or religion other than their own, but sweep this skepticism under the rug when the same is presented regarding their own religions.

Quote:
"The process itself is rational despite the mistakes and confusion as it goes through a narrow corridor choosing a few positive mutations and using low probability," he said.


Since when is the Pope a biologist? If he needs clarification regarding biological or biochemical phenomena, he should ask someone with expertise in these matters, such as myself, and I will gladly explain them to him in a “rational” manner that he may comprehend.

Quote:
"This ... inevitably leads to a question that goes beyond science ... where did this rationality come from?" he asked. Answering his own question, he said it came from the "creative reason" of God.


That’s why a Pope should leave the interpretation of biological and biochemical phenomena to the biologists and biochemists.

I have a few examples for the Pope:

Anencephaly, inborn errors of metabolism (such as phenyl-ketonuria, glucose-6-phospahate deficiency, and homocystinuria), cystic fibrosis, sickle cell disease and thallasemia, muscular dystrophy, etc,…not to mention HIV, hepatitis A, B, C, D, and E, smallpox, vibrio, salmonella, yersinia pestis, and the hundreds of other little creatures that use humans as food and incubation media.

I wonder about the rationality of such phenomena, and the “creative reason” that went into their design. Only a monster would ever design such a biological world. Better that no one be in charge, than a monster such as this.
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I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage

Naqshe Rostam
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Interesting retreat. Has evolutionary theory come so far, and become so irrefutable, that it is now demanding acceptance, even from God’s representatives on Earth? Apparently it has.


I'm not sure whether or not evolution has come that far or not. Nevertheless, this is one of the main reasons that most non-catholic christians dismiss the pope as cattering to evolutionists when he should be focusing on matters of theology and the church.

Christians in general do NOT have a "if you can't beat them join them" approach to life and christians will never accept evolution as even a possibility. Why? Do you ask? Because to this day, ABSOLUTLY NO TEST IN ANY LAB EVER HAS REPRODUCED WHAT EVOLUTIONISTS CLAIM. Life cannot come from non-life. It can't be proven with any replicatable results and is therfore NOT science. Yet evolution is still claimed to be science. It is only a theory and will remian as such until it can be demonstrated with replicatable results.

Quote:
Although, the facts and the proof are present for all to see. They have been there for over a century, and they keep mounting.


HAHAHAH!!! Thats quite a claim! No scientist on the planet can PROVE evolution. Otherwise everyone would believe in evolution. Thats why 51% of people in the United States reject evolution and 90% believe in a God!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17879317/site/newsweek/

Quote:

I find it very interesting that theologians retreat to reason and skepticism when it comes to refuting any subject or religion other than their own, but sweep this skepticism under the rug when the same is presented regarding their own religions.


Again AmirN, you assume that to be religious means to give up reason. This is absolutely not true. It is because of reason that we believe God came in human flesh at the crux of history and changed the world forever! 2000 years later EVERYONE knows his name and why he came. Some claim its all a lie but, how can you explain away his mark on the world? A poor little jewish carpenter in 3 years changed the course of human history. No man on earth can claim this. Only God could do something like that. That is reason.


Quote:

I wonder about the rationality of such phenomena, and the “creative reason” that went into their design. Only a monster would ever design such a biological world. Better that no one be in charge, than a monster such as this.


So many theologians have stated this before. It was created perfect but man destroyed the order of things. And now we must make the best of this broken and shattered world all because of the curse of sin. It is a prison of our own making. But God is a healer, and he will one day restore this world to what it once was. It will be good once again.

Keep in mind I am not defending the pope. I think he is only a man and occupies a place in men's minds that only God should occupy. But you are claiming that just because the pope is conceding to evolution in whatever small way, that somehow all religions are conceding to evolution. religion will never concede to evolution because we still have a better theory about how life got here. "God made life" makes so much more sense than "raining water on rocks for millions of years made life" Reason cannot explain how life can come from a rock. Not in a year, not in a million years! Life does not come from rocks! And I'm not even going to go into how evolutionists believe rocks came to be. Its SOOOOOO silly! How can anyone call that reason?!

I don't mind that you don't believe in God but stop trying to claim that reason is somehow on your side.
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You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
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AmirN



Joined: 23 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your comments are cute. However, as they are not interesting enough for serious consideration, I believe I will pass on rebutting them, as I have always passed on rebutting your comments in the past. I simply have bigger fish to fry.

Nevertheless, I would like to make the following comment in reply:

I can rightly claim that reason is on my side, because…reason shows that reason is on my side. Laughing
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I am Dariush the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage

Naqshe Rostam
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Cyrizian



Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Houston TX

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your comments are cute. However, as they are not interesting enough for serious consideration, I believe I will pass on rebutting them, as I have always passed on rebutting your comments in the past. I simply have bigger fish to fry.


Thats very humble of you...

Quote:
Nevertheless, I would like to make the following comment in reply:

I can rightly claim that reason is on my side, because…reason shows that reason is on my side.


Sadly AmirN, for all your talk of reason, you are as hard headed as the mullahs... I at least am willing to discuss. Perhaps it is the mullahs that have made you into what you are. I won't hold it against you.
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You wrote that the world doesn't need a savior...but everyday I hear people crying for one. -Superman
To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him. -Earnest Renan
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